turbo advise needed
Turbo Mini Forums

hello everyone my name is jason im new to this forum and i little out off place too,,,,,ill exsplain.

I drive a turbocharged 1250cc 8v Fiat Cinquecento Abarth with alot of modifiactions in all areas, but i need some advise on a turbo problem and i came across this site which seems to fit the bill nicley seen as the cinquecento engine is simalar in size to the mini engines etc.

Here is the thing, my car runs a turbo kit made by a company called Vanaaken developments and it runs a small Garrett T15 turbo as used on older VW TDI engines in low blow form, the kit came to me as a low boost non intercooled kit but i have turned this into a a high boost application running at 1 bar of boost with 125bhp/135lb/sf of torque, the small T15 is not happy running at this pressure because on my last visit to my rolling road inlet temps where sky high above 0.8 bar! i have sent my turbo off to midland turbos recently for a hybrid conversion, im wanting to run around 140bhp-150bhp with a compressor wheel and housing that will be happy to run a bar of boost (short bursts off 1.2-1.3bar) and still be running relitively efficiently.
What turbos do any off you guys run on minis with the off BHP level i wish to run and has anyone used a T15/t15 HYBRID on a mini??
Its also worth me mensioning i run a small turbo because of the drivability so drivability is a big thing for me, hence why im looking into hybrid'ing my T15.

any help would be great thankyou

jason

Edited by 1250cinqturbo on 27th Feb, 2010.

Hi,

interestingly I have been looking at Cinq turbo info as its possible to put the Cinq head on the mini block.

anyway, first off Id say look for a more modern turbo, I think a GT15 would be a good match for that size of engine. maybe a GT17 if you intend pushing past 150ish hp.

ideally though you should stick your bore and stroke and boost in this calculator and fiddle the VE until you get a hp figure similar to yours.

you'll then get an air flow figure you can use to estimate what compressor would be good,

the garret website has a lot of compressor maps you can use

Oh what intercooler do you have on there? and out of interest how hot are the inlet temps getting?

ow really! any info you need on the f.i.r.e engine heads ask away as i no a fair bit from exsperience and ive tryed a few differnt ones on my own turbo cinq.
I have been looking into the GT17 wheel and housing to fit to my T15 but midland turbos seem to think the GT17 wheel will be out off puff around 150bhp!? the inlet temps in the summer on the rolling road where getting as high as 61 dgrees c, since then i have re-routed the boost pipes away from the manifold, mounted the airfilter in the front grill and ive fitted a home made water spray kit which have brought temps in our lovely cold winter down to 20-22degrees c holding it at 1 bar in 5th gear, i run a punto gt turbo intercooler on this setup.
Thanks for the calculator tip big help :)

jason

oh also on the drivability, on our lumps a gt17 is spooling by 2000rpm, verses getting on for around 3k for the old metro T3.

I think the GT17 would still be fine on yours.

its well woth doing a search for gt17 on here

we have peple here running the 17 at closer to 200hp (180?)

have a search for a thread called gt17, theres some info on the maps in there.

thankyou, ill have a nosey.
I thought as much, when i spoke to the guy at midland turbos we descussed fitting the wheel and housing from the GT17 from the megane 1.9 DCI engine and or the the saab GT17 petrol turbo wheel,,,,when i asked if the new wheel and housing would be upto the job of 150bhp he said it would be near it max flow limit. Im guessing he didnt look at any form of comp map and he was thinking of the top of his head.

I would like to be able to stretch to buying a brand new GT range GT15/17 but a tighter budget due to a host of other tuning bits means ive gone down the hybrid my own turbo route.

thankyou

jason

Robert got 187.6hp from his at the TM RR with the GT1752. That is on a mystery cam though

On 12th Nov, 2009 Paul S said:

I think Gary OS has taken over my role as the forum smart arse

Seems ill have to have a good word with the guys who have the turbo, they only recieved it on friday and have yet to ring me to discuss my options.
Im very impressed by the shear power you guys are getting from these small engined minis!!! how are you doing it!!
i dread to think what a mini with over 180bhp goes like, my cinq weights 735kgs with 125bhp and its a missile but you guys have gone one step further haha.

Ive been thinking about going down the Garrett T2 route as a friend of mine runs a nissan micra turbo 1.3 on one which drives relitivly well, but he doesnt get the huge low end torque i get from mine and its this im worried about loosing if i choose to go bigger.

jason

have you got a RR printout you can post?

it'll be interesting to see the torque curve.

im afraid i dont have a printout that i can post no, but i can give you a good idea.

here is my setup firstly - 8v SPI

1250cc punto 75 bottom end
standard 1108cc head ported and polished
Garrett T15 turbo running 15psi
GT turbo intercooler
Punto 75 cam and adjustable pulley running 1 degree adavnce
1.5mm decompression plate
bigger 40mm throttle body
2" decat exhaust turbo back
Cosworth aditional injector controlled by an aquamist MF2
Fuel cut defender
Ford rs2000 fuel pump
EON1 plugs
setup on 97 octane fuel
electronic boost controller

125bhp @ 5800rpm -6666rpm

135lb/sf @ 3700rpm

130lb/sf @ 4500rpm
120lb/sf @ 5000rpm
110lb/sf @ 6000rpm

turbo comes in at 1800rpm at about 4 psi, it hits full boost at 3000rpm and the torque curve is very diesel like remaining flat across most of the rev range, pull agressivly from 2500rpm.

0-60 - 7 seconds
30-60 in third - 4.2seconds
max speed 132mph
quater mile 14.45 seconds

Edited by 1250cinqturbo on 27th Feb, 2010.

Mr. Prawn, the friendly Crustacean- slowly making steps towards forced induction.

that is early boost,

I think you will have to trade some of that off to get big power

for example the quoted 187 hp above was on an engine that give 4 psi at about 2500

dare I mention VNT?

Well the GT17 is god for 250bhp on the Saab, so it'll pump the air, the questionis at what pressure ratio does it get inefficient?

On our 998 it easily make 155bhp at 15psi so would be a good choice.

The T2 may work, I know people with decent power out of them on 1275s, but at 15psi the charge temps were much like the T15 you report.

What is a T15 by the way, is it a GT15?

Any photos of your set-up and turbo?

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

yes i have some photos of my my set up and turbo ill pop some up below.

The T15 is actualy a GT15 designed for low boost disel applications, Vanaaken used this turbo on the 1108cc and 1242cc 8v f.i.r.e engines like mine running 0.35-0.4 bar to give 85-95bhp depending on what engine it was fitted too. But Vanaaken also made a high boost kit for the cinqs which used a different Garrett T15 from a vauxhall astra diesel which was run at 0.5-0.6bar 110-115bhp. I have a friend who runs n 1108cc turbo cinq with the high boost T15 and has recorded 134bhp with no apparent problems at 1.3bar, where as my engine epec should be good for another 10bhp on this spec running the 1 bar boost.
Ive run into a few problems while trying to get my setup right, firstly i used to run a 9:1 c/r with 0.65bar making 116bhp on my turbo but had to lower the C/R to run more boost, I actually run a shamful setup at the moment for exsperimental reasons, that setup was to fit another head gasket to lower the C/R to around 7.8:1.
Just by fitting the H/G i lost 21bhp @ 0.65 bar hence why i have to run higher boost levels to get the BHP.

here are some pics of the setup and turbo -

Attachments:

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1.35mb

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1.3mb

That looks like a GT1544. There are two different versions of the GT1544. You will need the larger one.

Have a read of this:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=329594

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

here are a few more

Attachments:

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1.32mb

1.4mb

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What's odd is that Garrett have changed the map on their website for the 454083.

It's no longer any different for the 454082.

You will not get enough air flow through the smaller one for 145hp.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Wow im amazed looking at the two maps, if im right my turbo may be running close to the choke line at less than 70% efficiency, this would exsplain why Vanaaken choose mine for the low boost spec and the other for high boost, if they both use the same turbine housing then i should be fine to go ahead with the hybrid conversion with the GT17.

jason

Edited by 1250cinqturbo on 28th Feb, 2010.

my plan is to bring the C/R upto 8.5:1, and run an active knock controller that i have coming, this will mean i should be able to run less boost for the given flow rate id need to make my 145bhp goal.
The main reason i run a 1 bar of boost is like ive said the compression is to low for this setup, if the engine where more efficient then i would achieve better power form less boost or alot more for the same boost......at least thats my plan :$

guys on the fiat forum running 8.5:1 c/r on the 1242cc engine with the T15 (high boost) have acheived the same power as me running 0.7-0.8 bar

jason

I would say that you would be better off with a full GT1752, not just the compressor. The GT15 turbine housing will be restrictive.

As a guide, robert's 1310cc A series running a GT1752 will do 150hp with about 0.65 bar boost.

However, you need an efficient intercooler.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Yes it does look like you are going to be falling off the map of the smaller unit,

that coupled with what is a fairly small intercooler (by our standards lol) is not going to help.

just an idea, but can you stick a slimline fan on the (water) rad, move it back a couple of inches and get a big IC in front?

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Also loose that decomp plate if possible,

we dont like them LOL