Water Injection.....
Turbo Mini Forums

Hey folks,

I've been looking for a topic to possibly cover for my Honours year Engineering Project, and was considering water injection control system.

I've searched here and noted that those who have tried it have abandoned it.

Can I ask what was the main problem? I see it seems to be to do with rpm, I take it the issue is ensuring the correct amount of water is injected to maintain the optimum air charge temp?

Any info would be really helpful - I'm just doing some basic research at the moment, so thing might change.

Also if anyone has any water injection equipment for sale (must be cheap..... really cheap), let me know.

Cheers,

Oz

"se ne estas rompita, ne ripar ĝi - supercharge ĝi."

A lot will depend on why you are using it.

Are intake temps sky high ? are you doing it to run more boost ?

Some good info on it here.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

And depending on how you want to implement it, it can be very cheap.

Cheapest option is via a simple pressure switch, a jet and a headlamp washer pump. ( these run far higher pressure than a windscreen washer pump )

Better option is to buy a proepr kit from the likes of Aquamist ( expensive but quality ) or AEM, Snow Performance, Alky Control, Alcohol Injection Systems, Labonte Motorsports, FJO, Cooling Mist, Devil's Own....

the list goes on. Most of the above all use progressive controllers, which can have obvious benefits.

Edited by stevieturbo on 15th Apr, 2010.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Well, it's a combination of both Uni project and for personal use.

I've logged IAT readings ranging from 63 to 106 degrees C - so yeah, rather high.

It's more the controller side of things from the Uni project.

Thanx for the rice racing link - I have a good read.

Buying a kit kinda defeats the purpose - I suppose I could use the hardware and develop the controller from there.

"se ne estas rompita, ne ripar ĝi - supercharge ĝi."

one plus i have been told about, it has like a steam cleaning effect on the piston crown and combustion chamber/ valves just though id stick my 10pence in.. :)

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Have you looked at what your uni says about legal ownership?
My uni over here is the owner of all intellectual property and any material and developments from the project.
I was going to design rear trailing arms for my mini, and possibly market them over here. But i could be sued by my uni so didnt.

In boost we trust

After reading this thread on the Aquamist forum...well, first few pages so far. It seems there are massive merits to injecting pre-compressor.


Get testing for your uni project !!!!

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=251

http://efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5583&highlight

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

i tried pre-compressor, it kept un-spooling my turbo and made it go eerily quiet when it was on boost lol though that was my DIY setup with 2 misting nossles and a windscreen washer pump. never did try it with my progrssive AEM setup. probably wasnt atomised enough. the fact it made the engine almost silent was the weirdest part.

EDIT should add, it did work though, and it worked well enough to convince me that a good quality kit was worth its weight in gold

Edited by evolotion on 16th Apr, 2010.

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

Cheers guys. Still to have a good read of the links (exams next week + coursework to hand in), but think this could be intersting project. Denis, can I ask where you got the misting nossles from?

"se ne estas rompita, ne ripar ĝi - supercharge ĝi."

Fat caps ( grafitti shops stock them) but once your engine tune relies on water injection you don't want to be bodging stuff like that, had a jet block and instantly cracked a ringland.. Hence why I now run the good stuff :)

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

I think that the general consensus is that if you have high inlet temps look at your turbo and intercooler efficiencies before considering water injection.

It is another one of those mods that grew up in the 80s when turbos were big and inefficient. With modern turbos you should be able to do without.

Edit, How about for your project a stepper motor or linear actuator controlled actuator?

Edited by Ben H on 16th Apr, 2010.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

"se ne estas rompita, ne ripar ĝi - supercharge ĝi."

just reading through steves links, its rather interesting stuff, alot more is going off than i first thought, im liking this compressor efficiency increase due to pre turbo injection... hmmmm

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

I think that water and/or methanol injection has some small benefits in improving charge density.

However, you should only use it to optimise an already well setup system rather than try to fix a problem with an incorrectly applied supercharger.

If you are getting high inlet temps with the M45, try dropping the speed of the blower first. Some one on here did this recently and only lost a few horsepower after slowing the blower considerably.

You could then use the water injection to offset the loss.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

There is a lot more going on with water/meth injection that simply reducing intake charge temps.
The charge temps benefits are one aspect...in-cylinder effects are the where the real gains happen.

It will cool the combustion chamber and have massive benefits with detonation suppresion, and reducing EGT's
You'll easily be able to run more timing, more boost, and make more power with just a little water/meth

This guy has a lot of good info on his site.

And dont forget..>WRC cars used loads of water injection on their cars. Its what allows them to run crazy boost levels and make tons of torque at low rpm which is essential given their airflow restrictions which limit usable rpm.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Cheers for the info stevieturbo. I've had a quick look over the riceracing information.

Its looking like this will be next terms project.

"se ne estas rompita, ne ripar ĝi - supercharge ĝi."

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Not in cars or that applications that are relevant to us it hasn't. Paul put it better than me in that it can be used to optimise a good set up, but should not be used to try to fix a bas setup.

Also this seems to have drifted into water/meth when we were talking about just water.

Again the reasons it was used in WW2 was to fix bad setups (IMO) although it was the best they could do at the time so they were optimising I guess. But these days with modern, efficient, turbos and blowers it should be less required. WRC may well use it, I don't know, but you would never choose to build a WRC engine like it is. IMO they are not best suited to their application, only their regulations.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.

or....no knock when you try it

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

The jcb derv landspeed record car used it with twin ic's per engine that was built to take 100 bbl per engine to 750

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

i agree stevie, using water i could run my v8 on 20 psi ,95 octane ,and 9.25:1 ,with an open chamber head ,,prone to det.also with a LOT of turbine pressure . i could also get up to 37 mpg ,and run 12.85s 1/4 on treads .
its free octane boost ,and if you have to use mismatched parts and dont have a huge check book ,then it can let you get out there and have fun without breaking stuff.

i used a simple washer pump ,pressurised gallon tank ,and a valve to control flow , a home made nozzle made from a brake pipe , injected between compressors . a pressure switch turned it on at 7 psi .

a word of warning , on one occasion racing, i was level with a pickup big block ford and slicks ,thought the water was one full turn and one notch open on the valve , so turned it one notch closed ,and turned it off completely ....engine siezed and bent 2 rods in about a tenth of a second !!

something else to bear in mind , using water will put your flow point over towards the right on the compressor map , so if you dont have any more flow from the charger ,you wont do anything but overspeed it .

this is yet another topic where c. bell talks absolute !"£$%^&.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

This water injection excites me.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

The only thing I'm thinking may be an issue here.....is if injecting close to the intake valve. Would charge robbing be a concern on an A-series ??

Back in 94 when I ran my Mini, I did use a crude DIY setup, With a windscreen washer pump fed from a boost pressurised reservoir and an Aquamist jet just in front of the carb mouth. Activated at around 10psi boost.

Given the crudeness of everything I had then....Ive no data of any kind to offer on that.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

The only thing that has stopped me trying the crude system Stevie mentions is that it is a road car and often stands unused for a while. I have heard stories that, in these circumtances, rust in the engine can become a problem.

I was going to inject between the carb and manifold, using bike carb pilot jets, so as to have a selection.

Always sounded to me as if it was a cheap way to get extra power in a totally unsophisticated fashion, which suits me.