how do "you" set wheel alignment correctly ?
Turbo Mini Forums

so with a vague understanding on how its done and already tried to get a shop to do it with no luck
usual stuff like the car whont fit on the lift or the brackets whont mount on the wheels..

id like to do it myself never done it but want to try so any guys that have and want to share the procedure for a mini?

im guessing i need to buy a castor jig thing as thats an more of a dynamic reading donno help a fella out the car takes long right hand bends far better than left so its gotta be outa whack

its a fresh set of A048s id guess that any crappy settings will show up more with better rubber

First you need some gauges. I have a set of the old Dunlop caster/camber stuff, but there are cheaper options out there.

Then you'll need a toe gauge.

Start with the caster and camber. As adjusting the camber affects the caster and vice versa it's a bit of an iterative process.

So which one you adjust first depends on where you're starting from.

decreasing caster increases camber.

Always do the toe last.

It's more important that the caster is equal side-to-side than the camber.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

all right been looking around and found some interesting things
so far ive sorted some shim packs to get the 4 wheels on level ground as the concrete pad where i work on it is rubbish so yeah just a long straight edge with the level and a bunch of thin shims until i got 4 spots to put the wheels on only 3 shim packs tho as it wants to be nice n low as to roll the car up on the stacks of cause

after that i measured the rim dia and its 340mm so 340x6.28=2135.2/360=5.931111 that is the number ill need later for the calculation
next i bent a bit of thin sheet metal to push between the rim and rubber at the bead line on top of the wheel center line from that i hung a plumb bob with the steering straight i measured from the rim to the plumb line both top and bottom of the rim took the difference and divide by that 5.931111 number we got earlier the answer is the camber it came out at 1.34

to get the castor its the same way only the wheel needs to turn 20 degrease each side of center at each way i mesured once you get the diffrance at 20 degrees right and 20 degreese left than you just add them and divide but the magic 5.931111 that gave me 6.75 caster angle

now at this stage this is just the first time i tryed it on one wheel and yess its positve camber i just wanted to see if it was going to work and it seems to so i went and pumped the lower control arm out some 7 full turns to get it at zero camber im yet to go back and see what happend with the castor angle but what ever happend ill extend the tie rod i think untill i get the castor close to what about 3.5-4 castor and 1-1.5 neg camber ??

to start with i had the lower arm and tie rod all the way shortened or wound in so thats why it was positve camber and i donno what castor but it apears the lower ball joint is to the front of the car so i guess thats correct as ive currently got 6.75 so about twice what i want it to be at

donno guys im really flying blind here what angles should i be trying to get for castor and camber as a starting point for a track day setup

those calculations and methods have come from here in case your wondering
castor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oco27WtOip8
camber
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B_p5bhyWX0

ill need to get some camber and toe bracket for the rea as just looking at it i can see that the toe is more on one side than the other camber look close to the same how ever donno only eye balled it need to measure it with some parallel strings

im really keen to get this sorted as a DIY job as then i can change it to make the car feel and react in a predictable way

was also kinder discussed to see the tie rod bushings have started to crack with basically no use so thats shitty got some new once on the way soft rubber inner and harder outer the lower arm bushes are still really nice so thats good they also are new

what do you think will this method for castor and camber be good enough? or should i take a different route

Edited by Turbo This.. on 27th Mar, 2016.

The problem i always find is that the rims have loads of runout so if you do your measurements in one spot them rotate the wheel they will come out completely different. With the setup kit i have at the moment you have to rotate the wheel first and find the 'average' run out and do your setup making sure the wheel always stays in that same position.

well the right hand side is now set at 1.5 neg camber 4 pos castor the left hand side im still working back n forth its close but not yet on par to the RHS so will keep at it till it matches then ill turn the car 180 on the concrete pad and re check to see that ive infarct got the mini on dead level ground using the plumb bob string is a pain cos the wind keeps blowing right when i want to measure it typical..
so once i get both front camber and castor to match ill set some parallel and set the toe at about 1mm toe out? front and 1mm toe in rea
spin the car 180 and re check it all in the hope none of it changes as that will suggest the car was not 100% level in the first place

it takes a while just to do a small change roll the car off the shims and back on then re check the monuments to find what your next move is lengthen this shorten that or a combo of both
ive cycled threw at lest 12 times just on the RHS and im about 4 cycles on the LHS a few less as what ever i changed while doing the RHS i did the same to LHS so its kinda close to start with

still need to look at the rea end but thinking its going to be a pain so dont really want to go there but know i need to as once side has a good bit more toe than the other camber looks about equal by eye any tips for sorting the toe on the back? ive just got brackets with camber adjust and no toe adjust altho it was like 4 years ago i put them on so really need to have a fresh look and see if ive just got the thing in wrong thats quite possible..

slator are you segesting a jack the wheel up and get a dial indercator on the outer most part of the rim and mark the high n low?

pop n i did the basic refirb on thease wheels but that was just bead blast, paint, chuck on the inner bead and turn the paint off de burr and done now you mention it we should have turned the rim over and turned the mounting face flat

i cant see them being 100% i believe they are like 20+ years old with all sorts of marks on them.. well most of the marks are now gone but still a few deeper once show

ive see brake hold locks that some guys use is that a good idea? ive noticed the wheel will rotate a little while turning each way to the 20 degrees ie the string that was in the center when at 0 degrees moves off center of the rim when at the 20 degrees each way i guess the brake hold lock is to stop this?

Camber

I made a gauge from MDF that you hold sideways against the rim; A strip of metal acted as a pendulum to point to degree markings on the MDF. Later, I just downloaded an app on my phone (measures down to 0.1 degrees) and hold phone against the tyre at 3 or 9 o'clock position. As long as you have confidence in your current gauge, take a load of readings with both, you may be surprised at the accuracy and repeatability. And of course, quicker and less finiky.

Castor

I cant say ive ever done it very well so TBH, I'd just re-read your method above and copy that, or buy a bubble type casor camber guage off eBay.

Tracking

I fix a laser pointer to length of steel box section. Hold horizontally against each tyre and mark the dot position on a wall. Measure the distance between the dots. Roll the car back 5 metres. Take measurements again and however much the distance between the dots has increased tells you the toe-out angle. Just need to do the trigonometry to convert distance to an angle.

Notes: The precise angle you mount the pointer and any bend in the box section are unimportant, as any errors cancel out when measuring the other side, BUT the laser pointer has to be secure - hot glue and /or duck-tape usually works fine. Make sure the car has just rolled forward before taking a measurement; when you roll it back 5m, overshoot then roll forward to the 5m mark.

Corner weights

Pretty sure in NASCAR and other oval racing, they deliberately skew corner weights to bias cornering in one direction.

I haven't tried this yet but will be testing a method to check the balance without a set of scales or other corner weighing tools. Find a deserted flat car park. Mark lines across both front tyres with a suitable paint, perhaps tipex or chalk pen. On a flat and level stretch pull away fast enough to provoke some wheelspin then examine the paint to work out which tyre slipped the most. Adjust the suspension to put more weight on that corner, then retest. Of course it's not comparable to doing it with scales, but I suspect you could get it somewhat close to correct with little effort.

Edited by PhilR on 28th Mar, 2016.

Regarding brake locks... I sometimes roll the car on to knackerred old hubcaps ( the stainless dished ones) to swivel the wheels without loading up the suspension. Perhaps do this with your foot on the brake?

Edited by PhilR on 28th Mar, 2016.

1.5 camber and 4 caster is an ok starting point. I wouldn't go beyond 1.5 camber though. I usually start at 1.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

ok guys first off thanks for the input second i cant be arsed doing anything on it to night

phill

are you saying to calc the difference in mm from top to bottom of rim then find a shim that thickness and put it at the top of a straight edge the size of the rim and a level on that for the camber setting
ie in my case the top of the rim needs to be lent back 8.9mm for my rim size of 340mm to achieve 1.5 neg camber

as for the tracking or toe i wish i had 5 meters of flat ground but i like the idea of the lazer pointer

never thought of that old wheel caps idea that mint i think ive gots some old VW ones some place haha

wil

i was looking at the angle of the wheel and it looked a lot by eye but kinder just dismissed it as ohh its only 1.5 camber ive herd guys running like 3 or 3.5 but yeah might drop it to 1.25 or 1 i really dont drive it much but i do want the rubber to last as long as it can or at least not set the car up to chew them out in a months time.. so maby best to stay reasonable with toe and camber

Anyone running 3 or 3.5 are doing it for the look, not the handling or grip. The tyres won't work that that angle. Drifters use stupid angles, but they want to be able to lose grip.

4 deg castor is within the tolerance of the standard settings and works well on the road with an open diff.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

ahh i see so 1-1.25 camber is the way to go then
also what do most guys run for castor?
my under standing of castor is that the more it is the heaver the steering is but dose it really make that big a difference once moveing?
back on track more castor makes the car turn in and be less likely to slide on long fast corners docent it? i donno but 4 seems a good starting point

What caster should be used with a atb? More or less? I'm thinking less?

My build thread..

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=542985

Not mine but in principle my camber guage worked like this guys...



Car needs to be on perfectly level ground. Guage touches on both sides of the rim (not tyre) so always sits at the same angle as the wheel. Make the pendulum pivot 57.3cm above the scale and your scale is 1 cm = 1 degree so you can glue a ruler on for the scale and with a bit of care your resolution is 0.1 degree.

Regarding the laser pointer tracking... TBH, the last time I did mine I only had a couple metres room at most. You just trade some resolution, but you can get good results with less room...

Roll the car 57cm and the distance between the dots changes at a rate of one cm per degree of toe angle, which means:

57cm 1.0cm/deg
115cm 2.0cm/deg
172cm 3.0cm/deg
229cm 4.0cm/deg
286cm 5.0cm/deg

etc etc...

Hope that makes sense?

Edited by PhilR on 29th Mar, 2016.

Settings as Wil suggests.

Around -1.25 camber front and 0.0 rear makes the car nicely planted and stable mid corner. Set it and forget it. +/-0.25 degrees won't make a very noticeable difference.

Adding castor increases straight line (and sweeping bend) stability when at speed. Too much makes it harder to turn but on a road car I prefer a high value as it's more relaxing to drive at speed. Start at 3 to 4 degrees as Wil says and if it feels good just set and forget. (Really important that both sides are close to equal to keep car settled under braking).

After that, I spend most of my effort tweaking the tracking. Bad tracking both front and rear can ruin a nice setup.
At the front, too much toe-out makes it wander and steering is vague, too little or even toe-in sharpens up the steering, but then starts to make steering heavy, even gentle bends.
At the rear, a little toe-in is needed. Not enough, or toe-out (deadly) will make the back of the car wander around of it's own accord. Don't negate the back - its just as important as the front.

Edited by PhilR on 29th Mar, 2016.

Start with the same. I set a car with an ATB up with 4 deg and it drove very nicely.

With a plate diff I run a maximum of 3.5deg castor as my arms are weedy. Miglias run over 5 deg of castor, but they're a racing car with a spec tyre and an open diff.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

I RECKON ITZ BEST 2 START WIV AT LEAST 5 DEGRES OFF CAMBA ASA STARTIN POINT.

THEN U CAN FIT DA WIDE RIMS UNDER DA ARCH FOR BETA POKE.

Edited by Stanced-MINI on 29th Mar, 2016.

Hahah, whoevers done this is a legend! I hate those types of cars.

Edited by Jay#2 on 29th Mar, 2016.

was probably std ride height till they filled it full of bass bins...

Hahahahha

Occasionally, people used to whip up a fake profile for a laugh but it hasn't been done for ages. My favourite was Gaydar.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=5527

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...id=222744&fr=25

done crap all this w/e besides work both days and a few drinks to unwind while doin the house chores

got the dial indicator on the rim with it lifted just clear of the ground from under the lower ball joint

kinder hard to get consistent readings as theirs no place to mount the mag base so had to clamp it to the wheel arch and it kinder flexes about haha anyways messed around and came up with about 0.22mm in/out and 0.47mm up/down

im sure that if i simply remounted the wheel it would be different every time maby cleening the mounting faces might help as i think theirs a bit of paint on the back of the rim

not sure whats exceptionable for run out or what could affect the readings but i think that 0.22mm is marginal
i doubt i could measure with a scale and a string line plus what ever other variables there is that stack up

phill ill have a go at building one of those camber gauges seems a better way to do it than how ive been fumbling about it
also do you think the camber plum bob could work for castor ie just get the two readings at 20 degrees each way and use that in some calc?