****LAYSHAFTS IMPORTANT INFO FOR YOU ALL****
Turbo Mini Forums

Right T3tone and I have just squashed our selves in my shed to do some "scientific tests" on a few layshafts I had laying around.

Now what made me start all this was the fact that Mini Spares said they don't have any of there "comp" layshafts in stock, but they do sell a "genuine one" in there words, it's was said to be made the to the same spec as the good old genuine rover ones.

So I bought one, looking at it, which I know isn't very scientific. Made me think it doesn't look very hard as it was all one colour, where others and standard rover ones have dark marks on them from the Harding process.

So we tested the one they sell now as "genuine" , an old "comp" one from them that I had used before, and we found a old rover REALLY Genuine, Genuine, Genuine one to test!

Now the special tool for the job was a square file, with the sharp edge to be used!, please stay with me on this!

Now we did the same push stroke on all 3 shafts and as much as possible we put the same hard pressure on the push as on all.

Now on the "old rover REALLY Genuine" shaft the file hardly marked it and just left some very light scuff on the surface, the result was very Similar with the "mini spares Comp shaft", funny enough to look at these 2 shaft DO look very similar in terms of how there were made up.

Now we come to what a lot of people might have bough lately and that's the mini spares genuine one they sell now. The reason for this post!

Here the file doug right in to the shaft and DIDN'T SKIM along the surface of it like the other 2! you could feel how soft it was compared to the other 2!

After we looked at all the shafts the marks on the "mini spares genuine one" was NOTICEABLY bigger and deeper!!

So I know this wasn't really that scientific but for me and tone, we could see and feel the BIG difference between what we had used in the past to what we NEARLY used NOW!

You can take away form this what you like but I HOPE it stops you fitting what might be for cars with lots of grunt a softer shaft!

On a final note this must be the biggest post I've every typed so I hope you get some good use out of it as my fingers are now hurting lol.

all the best
MW

Edited by AlexB on 10th Jan, 2006.

Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on a carb?
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on Injection?

http://www.mattwoodsphotography.com

Well done that man!!

actually that should be those men,

the file test is basic but is a quick way to acertain if sonething has been hardened ,are you sure the last shaft has been heat treatend?,i'm sure you are right though ,
makes tyou think though dosn't it.

carl

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

cheers mini13 , and Carl. I would think it hasn't been heat treated, but me, t3 and hogster all have one and they are all the same.

Edited by Miniwilliams on 10th Jan, 2006.

Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on a carb?
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on Injection?

http://www.mattwoodsphotography.com

show us a pisc of the sorfie.

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

This is very interesting.

As Carl says, the 'file test' is a simple test, but VERY quick and the results (when compared to a known sample) are obvious.

What i dont understand is this:


IT'S A SHAFT.


Now, that might seem like a useless statement, but the fact of the matter is that I don't think there is a more easy component in the whole of the transmission to make to a hardened spec as a shaft.

I'm going to pull a shaft out and make a drawing of it and get some quotes, as this is a frankly ridiculous situation. The thing i'm really surprised at is why Minispares/mania are selling something that is so under-spec.


As Carl says - this message is useless without pics. So get your macro lens out, and show us once and for all. Make sure you identify the shaft (using a cd pen or similar) next to the 'test area' so there is no confusion...
I would still like to know the specified hardness at the surface and core of a 'pukka' AustinRover mainshaft however...

Edited by TurboDave16V on 10th Jan, 2006.

Dave that's almost what tony said, how easy is it to make compared to some parts!

i'll do me best for pics.

Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on a carb?
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on Injection?

http://www.mattwoodsphotography.com

well done matt, but now you cause me some concern!

im attempting to rebuild my gearbox and have one of minispares rebuild kits, which includes a layshaft, however i dont want to be putting it in if its made of plastecene

what are the options now as to which layshaft to use?

is it possible to get a group of them hardened?

or is it put it in and hope for the best until something comes along, or raid a selection of gearboxes for a decent gen layshaft

Hardening stuff isn't that simple - as it depends what's already been done to it...

Myself - I'd pay even double the Minispares price for a shaft - KNOWING that it met or (ideally) exceeded the AustinRover (note - not Rover ) specifications.

Is the layshaft just one straight diameter anyone got a drawing or a rough sketch

Metro turbo weekend driver,Mini turbo in the making again!

bugger my gearbox rebuild kit turned up today with the "genuine" shaft in it

Do the file test - and send it back saying what you think of it...

I may know of a little company who could make these for us. Dave could you get some material and treatment specs ???

What i'm tempted to do is put a drawing together using hardness specs and surface finishes as we use on similar (but larger) shafts in the transmissions we design and manufacture...

I know a few companies in England (none over here yet mind) that'd quote for this. Maybe it's worth asking places like Quaife aswell...

Will get a few 'pukka' shafts together tonight, measure to get a range of dimensions, and put a drawing together on the morrow.



Minispares should be embarrased to be selling what seems to be little more than a steel drift...

Edited by TurboDave16V on 10th Jan, 2006.

Guys, can you make any of these shafts available for hardness tests proper, I will see what I can arrange.

bear in mind the test can be done 'next' to where the bearings sit, so it's (in effect) non destructive.

Tom - Whip the shaft outof that MPi tranny aswell. Be interesting to compare 'Austin Rover' to Rover stuff

To be honest im amazed at minispares appearing to sell such a shoddy item. It aint rocket science to turn these out.

miniwilliams on the hard shaft does the large end have the 4 notches in it.

always looking for them bigger bunches of bannanas

took mine out of its wrapper today and its rusty

Got some pics here of the so called "genuine rover" layshaft that we tested. There are a few differences compared to a genuine rover shaft. The oil holes on the shaft surface are noticably smaller and the big end of the shaft has no markings and a small chamfer. Where as the minispares hi-grade and genuine rover shafts have larger oil holes and the big end has four marks on the end and a bigger chamfer.


As matt said the shaft is also all one colour and quite shiney, the rover and hi grade are dull and have blue/black lines where the shaft changes diameter because of the hardening process.


As i stated earlier the large end has no marking and a small chamfer.


Sorry for the quality of this pic but you can see where we done the "file test" (away from where the bearing runs). I was amazed at the difference between the layshafts we tested. Both the minispares hi-grade and proper genuine rover shafts seem very similar both in looks and the files just slipped on both making hardly any marks. I had to keep testing the so called genuine one as i just could'nt believe how the files just gripped and scored the surface. The marks in the pic above are surprisingly deep!!!!

Edited by T3Tone on 11th Jan, 2006.

-MINI CLUBMAN 1380 TURBO-

Good stuff. Or should that be bad?

Well im very glad we tested it before using it, i really cant see it lasting, i had the minispares hi-grade one previously and after 18 months (not sure on milage) with a few 0-60's and santa pod runs under its belt the wear was minimal. Not sure if they are going to re-stock them but apparently they are going to produce a new competition type, at a price though. But will be worth it if it it can last.

-MINI CLUBMAN 1380 TURBO-

well done tony, i think we are on to some thing here!

i didn't want to panic people just inform them:)

Edited by Miniwilliams on 11th Jan, 2006.

Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on a carb?
First 5 port miniturbo to make over 200 bhp on Injection?

http://www.mattwoodsphotography.com

what happens to the shaft if its not been hardened?
are minispares not breaking the trade descriptions act if there not actually "genuine" or to a "genuine" spec?
is there any alternative?