Fast road 1293 turbo - aprox 150hp
Turbo Mini Forums

Which two and have you looked at the sides of the rods next to where the shells go.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

where near reading?

I'm just down the road :)

AlexF

A place called Hook, nr Basingstoke.

I know its not that close to reading but readings the nearest big place.

Any ideas about the shell bearings ?

Or any comments on the spec on the previous page ?

Like i say im all stripped down ready but need this spec completed so i know exactly what in working to.

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

Right have had a better look at the bearings/rods etc. today and I made a mistake ! doh !

The two knackerd bearing shells were removed from the ROD sides (not caps) of cylinders 1 and 3.

I have edited the previous post also

Have had a look at the sides of the rods where they run against the crank and they do look slightly more worn than the others on the two offending cylinders. The crank parts though look fine, same as the others.

Is there any way of chacking/measuring to see if the crank and rods will be serviceable ?

Also if they turn out not to be, I have a 1293 A+ engine that was removed from my first mini as it overheated and knackerd a piston, Would the crank and rods from this be the same ? or could be used providing they are in good condition ?

thanks guys, really need to get this sorted !

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

OK,

Were the rods all the same way around (ie, were the casting numbers all on the same side running down the block) ???

Because they shouldn't be.... 1 and 3 should be the opposite way around to 2 and 4 (or vice versa).

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Rod, In my haste to dismantle the engine I didnt pay attention to wich way round they were ! just shocked at what i found ! We live and learn

You will have to excuse my naivety but due to the rods being offset, can they BE fitted the wrong way round ?

More to the point, do you think the block/crank/pistons can be used for my engine build of should i source others ?

Wich brings me round to my other point, can i use any A+ rods/crank as i have a 1293 sat in my shed.

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

I didn't think it was at all possible to fit the rods the wrong way. If so, there would be impossible to turn the engine around easily on the starter, let alone bu hand.
I'd be looking at a bent rod or a strange crank.

Edited by Rod S on 9th Oct, 2009.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

So do you guys think there will be any damage to the block or should the bearings have taken all the abuse ?

The block looks in good order and a machine shop should be able to tell me if the rods and crank are serviceble ?

Can anyone recomend a good machine shop in the south, more specifically nr Reading ?

Edit- also any more info on the spec guys ?

Edited by Arge on 9th Oct, 2009.

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

If this has run (granted that this is at all possible) then the bores would have to be fucked, no doubt. I still cant see this as possible.

The rods in your picture will definitely need a hone. Check for straightness, as well.

Hope this wasn't one of those £500 Metro Turbo engines of ebay...

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

Vegard, the fact is the bearing shells are totally fooked on one side only and came from alternate numbered bores.

Although the chances of being able to build an engine with the rods all the same way around is low, the chances of two rods being bent in an identical manner and being from the mirror image cylinders is also low....

Arge, I would suggest a trial re-assembly.
Take the rings off the pistons - if your reboring anyway it will only take a few minutes to reasssemble it without the rings - and see if it is possible for those two rods to have been in backwards.

Also, have a look up inside the pistons to see if there is any sign of wear of the aluminium from the little end of the rods touching one side (which they shouldn't).

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Rod,
Just finished a trial re-assembly and discovered it it deffinately NOT possible to get the rods in the wrong way around. Well not with this engine anyway. You couldnt even get them in with force, they just foul on the crank.

So eliminating this, my next question is, Are the rods of an engine all the same ?
Just with 2 facing one way and 2 180 degrees out the other way so the offsets match the crank ?

Or are 2 of the pistons actually different to the other 2 ?

Assuming this engine has been rebuilt before, I am wondering wither the rods got mixed up (for example cylinder 1 rod in cylinder 2,3 or 4 etc.) If the rods are all the same surely this wouldnt matter but if 2 were different it would.

Am searching for the cause of this as i really dont want to build this engine only for the same thing to happen again ! :$

Its also porob worth noting at this point that having looked closer at the other 2 rod bearing shells (2 and 4) they are starting to do the same thing, one side of the bearing has worn trough the silver layer to the bronze coloured layer beneath. so looks like they were all doing it just 2 worse than the other 2. does this change things ?

Edited by Arge on 11th Oct, 2009.

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

Right, have carried out even more investigating and think i may have somthing...

Looking at the rods, they are cast, 2 of them with an 'F' and 2 with an 'R'.

My theory is fully based on these letters standing for 'Front' and 'Rear' of engine. Can someone confirm that this is what they stand for in a metro turbo engine ?

Anyway if this is correct...

These letters are cast on the sides of the connecting rod WITHOUT the offset big end if you get what I mean. so the offset is on the other side of the rod.

I have looked at which cylinder each rod came from and wich way round it was mounted (can only go one way as in the post above). With the pistons/rods as they were in the engine, both the 'F's are pointing towards the flywheel (REAR) end of the engine and the 'R's pointing towards the Timing (FRONT) end of the engine !

Could this be my problem ?

Maybe the 'F's shoule be pointing to the front of the engine and the 'R's to the rear ?

Thes say a picture speaks a thousand words so heres one i made earlier....



Hope this is clear what i mean.

Any thoughts guys ?

Thanks

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

First, I can only speak from personal experience and that's mainly on older engines and standard Aplus. Many many years ago (in my innocent youth) I did mis-assemble one and the rods went in but locked up when I tightened the big end nuts. I can only assume the side clearance inside the small end of the pistons was large enough on those particular pistons to allow me to have got that far.

I haven't a clue about the "F" and "R" markings, never seen them....

Hopefully someone else can answer that.

However,

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

Arge,

you are being quite clear with your descritions :)

I have never seen rods stamped with a "direction" as far as i am concerned they are interchangable from one bore to the other, as long as you put it in the right way round as you've found.

I think that the one sided wear is a symtom of the bearing coming away from the shell, rather than a cause.

I would grab some plastigauge and some other bearings and see if there is any clearance issues.

have a looksie at the ink in this thread.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=258794

Thanks mini13, thats an excellent find !

Have had a quick look through but will have a better look tomorow.

Initial thoughts are it looks like the surface fatigue picture, with a hint of oil starvation (see first picture on previous page)

But as the wear is offset, it also points towards a misalignment issue or out of shape journals

will report tomorow

thanks again

Edited by Arge on 11th Oct, 2009.

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!

Arge,

Now you've you've described the positions of the wear on all four, I would tend to agree with Joe (mini13) as that is all where the load is technically slightly higher (due to the offset) but, the increase in load on those sides is tiny and the damage in the photos is so severe with the good side virtually untouched.

So what I would add to what Joe says, is when you use plastiguage on good bearings (use the best two bottom halves if you have no spares, top and bottom are interchangeable on big ends) don't just use it to measure the clearance, but specifically see if it comes out compressed in a taper rather than parallel sided - this would add to my suspicion of misalignment (for whatever reason).

Also, if you can, do plastiguage readings at two different rotational positions of the crank for each bigend, say 90ATDC and BDC

EDIT - if it does turn out to be cause rather than effect as Joe thinks, have a read of this http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=5117
presumably you have the solid bottom half main bearing shells, but are the crank main bearings cross drilled ???

Edited by Rod S on 12th Oct, 2009.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

ive been watching this with interest and it seems like a tricky one, however with this possible missalignment idea it could be the case that the rods and rod caps have been mixed up on a previouse build, there is a way to check all the caps are on the correct rods and the correct way round, all you have to do is match up the machining marks on the side faces of the rods and caps. duing manufacture the caps and rods are bolted together and machined as one, so the machining marks are unique between that matched pair.

After neglecting the mini project for the winter (shame on me !) its time to get it rolling...Literally !

Picking up this engine trouble with the big end bearings where I left off, I have decided to just take the crank and rods to a machine shop/engine builder who can tell me what may have been the cause but more importantly wether or not they are servicable (or will be after a regrind etc.)

So I am looking for a good A-series machine shop/Engine builder not too far from me that I can use. My Location opposite shows me as near Reading, this is sort of true but im actually about 15-20 minutes from Reading in a town called Hook.

Does anyone know of or can anyone reccomend somewhere not a million miles from me that would have the required knowledge/machines/tools to check and possibly measure my crank and rods ?


Also regarding this...

Will my project ever be finished !!? hopefully you guys can help !
Its only been like 10 years in the making and I'm only just assembling my engine!