Engine Simulation Software
Turbo Mini Forums

Here you go:



This is for an NA engine. Turbo is different.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

fab,

I've used the Engine Analizer Pro by performance trends, its useful but I found it a little lacking from a turbo charging point of view,

On 26th Jan, 2011 fab said:
That's very interesting!!!

and that's pull my gutts...

So is this soft ok to modulate a 5 porter?

It seem so,then the information given here have gold value, is there is a trial version as engine analizer pro from perf trend?

You pick up my interest, that's long time we didn't have a so good post in TM.

Thanks Paul!...again guttss...

I found that the most lacking faeture was at calculating siamese pulses, inlet and exhaust lenght.
Regarding turbocharging, nozling the diameter of a turbo entry isn't that easy, though I used to put the nozzle/efficience that met the same boost/temp ramp as my known turbos.

It seem that Paul's analizer is much much better regarding a series F-porter.

A shame he can't/doesn't comunicate the source of this one,




fab

On 26th Jan, 2011 Joe C said:
fab,

I've used the Engine Analizer Pro by performance trends, its useful but I found it a little lacking from a turbo charging point of view,

On 26th Jan, 2011 fab said:
That's very interesting!!!

and that's pull my gutts...

So is this soft ok to modulate a 5 porter?

It seem so,then the information given here have gold value, is there is a trial version as engine analizer pro from perf trend?

You pick up my interest, that's long time we didn't have a so good post in TM.

Thanks Paul!...again guttss...

I can't divulge the source as it would get me in big trouble. However, I'll share what I can.

This software actually uses the turbine and compressor maps and does power balance on the turbo shaft. The problem is equating what little published data there is to a full turbine map. It took some time to get a handle on it.

The problem with most software tools available is that they only do exhaust tuning on open exhausts. As you see from the above graphs, this does the full monty.

You even have to input port and manifold material, thickness and cooling method as it even calculates the energy loss between the valve and the turbine.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Having complete the a-series modelling, could you watch an a-serie thru his tuning?
ie base eng : mpi
then with 274 cam,
then st3,
then lcb/3/1
then , and that's what is really interesting me, how it does benefit from a twin trhottle inlet from a simple throttle, efi in mind.
I can collect datas that you haven't already have .

I 've no more guns .... N/A




a bit of encouragements
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEmvV_AwRk8

edited for illustration purpose.

Edited by fab on 28th Jan, 2011.

Fab, you keep your love in a cupboard :)

That's a hell of a lot of work. I've put about 100 hours into simulating my engines. I now need to start cutting metal.

I can have a look at twin throttle bodies as opposed to a plenum and single TB on one of mine.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Does this help:



I had already ran some of these simulations to decide on the inlet arrangement for the Racing Flame. I've added one with a plenum.

The engine is a standard 998 with a modified 33/26.5 12G295 and an LCB. Head flow figures came from Vizard "How to modify your Mini". LCB sizes came from the yellow bible. Standard cam. RC40 exhaust. No air cleaner.

The twin runners all use 35mm TBs. The plenum is 1.8 litres and fitted with a 50mm throttle body.

They all use 35mm bore runners as this was found to be the optimum from earlier parametric simulations. This was also found to be the case on the 1293 turbo.

There are a couple with balance pipes of differing diameters. The short runner/large balance makes the highest power, but the 250 runners with a plenum makes the most useable torque.

You can have all of the colours in any of the sizes, so it depends where you want the torque.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Torque curve:

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

80 hp for a standart cammed 998 ???

I didn't think it could be possible !

Or maybe it is just a trend on inlet lenght you are showing us ?

Rusty by nature

Don't be afraid Paul, I'm a sweet guy....


Thanks for posting the 998 curves, though I'm not sure it'll match the 1275 flow..
if ever you had time to calculate at least these intakes for the 1293 turbo it would be nice.

fab

On 28th Jan, 2011 Paul S said:
Torque curve:

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I'd say the torque is more to do with the plenum than intake length though ?

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Yes, at 4000rpm, it is benefiting from pulses in the plenum that do not ocurr with the individual runners.

You can understand why production cars often use plenums with longish runners.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Could probably be worth opening up a std metro turbo plenum to add substantial volume ( space permitting )

But there is a fair bit of room really. Especially depth wise.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

The plenum volume is not significant. The length of the runners is though. Hence the most gains would be made by lengthening the manifold.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but would the effects on length be similar on a head with a seperate runner for each cylinder ? Ala 7 or 8 port ?

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM

That's the million dollar question. I don't know the answer.

But I think that you can't see the benefits of a tuned inlet whilst still keeping the inlet inside the bonnet line.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

so,what you are suggesting is an inlet manifold of 14" from the carb to the cylinder head? give or take a ½"
Or am i way off?

If i have more toys than you when i die, I WIN

Something like that.

I've nearly finished simulating a 7 porter. A couple more options to do.

I'll finish it when we get back from Bingley tomorrow.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

7 Port VE curve for your amusement:



This is for a NA engine with an LCB but with a moderate cam and head as you would use in a turbo install. High overlap cams would present different figures.

As you can see, the optimum runner length for the 7 port is about the same as the 5 port. This had me puzzled for a while as I did not expect it. A bit of research into "wave interference" has shown how the siamese port will act the same as two individual ports as far as the wave dynamics are concerned. Pressure waves actually pass through each other rather than cancel each other out.

Interestingly, based on the same cam and port flow, the gain in VE over the 5 port is about 3-4%. This is because it overcomes the charge robbing problem. There is still some impact on inner cylinder VE due to the siamese exhaust port.

Edited by Paul S on 31st Jan, 2011.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Interesting,

I have just been out to measure my runners, the outers are about 180-190mm and the inners about 160-170,

I assume we are talking valve to bellmouth.

You need to add 100mm to the above for the valve to bellmouth value.

So the 250mm runner has a total length of 350mm from valve to bellmouth.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

i would love to understand all this.