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 11046 Posts Member #: 965 Post Whore Preston On The Brook |
18th Jan, 2012 at 06:01:44pm
On 18th Jan, 2012 jbelanger said:
On 17th Jan, 2012 Sprocket said:
I'm sticking with all 16 valves, a log exhaust manifold and a compact log plenum... What's the point in using a 16-valve head if you're going to choke it on both the intake and exhaust sides? Jean the same could be said for 5 port and 8 valves then. Fact is if you want to squeeze all the extra gubbins of a turbo motor under a boggo standard round nose bonnet and grill without having intercoolers dangling off the front panel or hacking the body about to fit bulkhead boxes, packaging needs to be the way it is. On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be... So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'... On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........ |
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
18th Jan, 2012 at 07:05:19pm
On 18th Jan, 2012 Sprocket said:
the same could be said for 5 port and 8 valves then. For the 8 valve maybe, but the 5 port is already there. On 18th Jan, 2012 Sprocket said:
Fact is if you want to squeeze all the extra gubbins of a turbo motor under a boggo standard round nose bonnet and grill without having intercoolers dangling off the front panel or hacking the body about to fit bulkhead boxes, packaging needs to be the way it is. Look at what Paul S is doing. Packaging is working but he's optimizing the intake and exhaust sides before going to more ports/valves. That seems to me like a more logical way to go. Jean |
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 8297 Posts Member #: 408 Turbo Love Palace Fool Aylesbury |
18th Jan, 2012 at 07:41:05pm
On 18th Jan, 2012 Carlzilla said:
In my head, the reason the 16v heads are better is all down to the design of the head in our case, i very much doubt an a series 5 port head, with 16 valves (impossible i know) would create very little, if any, benefit over the 8v under boost. The a series head is a very old design, and average at best, which is where the modern more efficient head conversions come into play. I'd love to fit a better head than 5 port later on down the line, but the 5 port is good enough for me as im not planning to squeeze every last horsepower the a series is capable of producing. Until one day i wake up and decide that i do. Carl has hit the nail on the head - so far ive found that you can get away with a much higher static CR with the 16v head, whether this is down the chamber design, head material, VE of the head, or fueling, there is a massive improvement over the 5 port design from stock. Ive also found that the gt17 couldn't flow enough top end 6k+ where alot of people find it fine on the 5 port, which also suggests a better VE top end, again whether this is down to the amount of valves or head design I don't know. It would be interesting to run back to back tests with the 8V and 16V K heads to see the difference in flow up to say 6/7k. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fusion-Fabri..._homepage_panel
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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
18th Jan, 2012 at 08:03:43pm
Automotive engine design has moved on considerably in the last couple of decades, in particular, the understanding of the wave action within the entire induction and exhaust system. New techniques have been developed to gain a greater understanding of how the air flows through the engine. This has been backed up with the development of very sophisticated test instrumentation to enable scientists to verify the theories.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 9258 Posts Member #: 123 Post Whore Betwix Harrogate and York |
18th Jan, 2012 at 08:27:25pm
True, but I'm not sure we have enough data to get it right in one go. Your design is still a theory. and even when you get it going, there will be no data to prove if it has worked or not. Just one bhp number.
Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph
On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:
the design shows a distinct lack of imagination, talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry. |
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1083 Posts Member #: 8932 Post Whore |
18th Jan, 2012 at 08:29:53pm
I really enjoyed reading that interview, so much quality information, really interesting. Shame that a large amount of that cylinder head tech is not as relevant for forced induction.
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
18th Jan, 2012 at 08:46:32pm
On 18th Jan, 2012 wil_h said:
True, but I'm not sure we have enough data to get it right in one go. Your design is still a theory. and even when you get it going, there will be no data to prove if it has worked or not. Just one bhp number. That's where the SOT curve comes in. It gives a specific power output in terms of hp per litre per 1000 revs per bar of boost. It is a valid comparative tool. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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 6752 Posts Member #: 828 Post Whore uranus |
18th Jan, 2012 at 10:01:42pm
exacto
Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM |
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9258 Posts Member #: 123 Post Whore Betwix Harrogate and York |
19th Jan, 2012 at 07:47:50am
Explain to me the SOt curve then, it seems to have passed me by and Google is no use, I just end up back here. Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph
On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:
the design shows a distinct lack of imagination, talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry. |
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112 Posts Member #: 7030 Advanced Member Bucks |
19th Jan, 2012 at 08:20:04am
Uhm may be SOT = state of tune, a succinctly posh way of saying dyno sheet lol. |
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9258 Posts Member #: 123 Post Whore Betwix Harrogate and York |
19th Jan, 2012 at 08:33:26am
I was hoping for a forumla! Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph
On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:
the design shows a distinct lack of imagination, talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry. |
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3594 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
19th Jan, 2012 at 11:41:52am
On 17th Jan, 2012 wil_h said:
He also said that he hadn't really played with turbos, so how does he know. I'd say from this forum alone it is obvious that the 16v motors make more power on less boost. Or is that your point? On 17th Jan, 2012 Sprocket said: Was speaking to DV at the Autosport show and he said that using a turbo, you don't really need those 16 valves, 8 will do just fine. they may make more power on less boost, but how many have really tried to push very hard with a 5 port ? It may be easier with a 16v, but that doesnt mean a 5 port cant achieve the same power. It's a bit like the Cossie YB. People might rant and rave about how great it is. There are 8v Pinto turbo cars that have went just as fast. I seen a tidy MK2 Escort in Denmark pulling consistent and easy 9sec passes. And it certainly wasnt a drag car. There werent any Cossie engined vehicles doing the same. has anyone tried 30psi ? 40psi ? One aspect a 16v head will be far above a 5 port though is combustion chamber shape. The swirl they produce is just better and will be more resistant to detonation. Although it's also a reason I'd never even contemplate opening up/removing the 8v head kidney shape. On 18th Jan, 2012 wil_h said:
I think DV is missing something then. a turbo engine will respond the same to head mods as an NA engine. You can see this just by looking at the formula where VE has a direct effect on predicted power. The compromise between packaging and optimisation is always a tough one. But if your packaging compromise will still achieve your target, then it's not really a compromise is it? Again not true. Using the LS as an example, there are many aftermarket intake setups that achieve good gains on n/a cars over a standard LS6 intake/throttle. Throw a bit of boost into the equation, and even beyond 1000bhp, there are few intakes that better the totally standard LS6 intake and throttle.. Same with exhaust manifolds. Many might think a log manifold is terrible etc....and they arent wrong. Throw boost into the equation, and even the most horrific manifolds are still capable of making serious power. Can improvements be made...of course. But boost can even make bad things seem great. 9.85 @ 145mph
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 5329 Posts Member #: 140 Proven 200+bhp & Avon Park 05,06,07 Class D 3rd place |
19th Jan, 2012 at 11:56:01am
The thing is, is he up to date with all the new things that are around. Best 1/4 mile 13.2 seconds @116 mph
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9258 Posts Member #: 123 Post Whore Betwix Harrogate and York |
19th Jan, 2012 at 11:59:04am
I can see your point stevie. But there is a big differance between making lots of power with lots of boost for a drag car and making a car that will work on the road or a hillclimb.
Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph
On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:
the design shows a distinct lack of imagination, talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry. |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
19th Jan, 2012 at 12:44:31pm
VE is just as important on a turbo as in NA. You can offset a lower VE with a bit more boost, but that in itself creates higher cycle average back pressure which reduces VE even further. Law of diminishing returns. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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Site Admin  15300 Posts Member #: 337 Fearless Tom Fenton, Avon Park 2007 & 2008 class D winner & TM legend. |
19th Jan, 2012 at 12:47:57pm
As I see it, it is the same principle as building a lightweight car. You have to leave absolutely no stone unturned to make the most power. The moment you say "that will do" you will not make as much power as you might.
On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:
On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else Like fuel 😂😂 |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
19th Jan, 2012 at 05:45:31pm
I just read on FB that Viz is going to do some cylinder and port pressure testing on a Miglia 5 Port engine as part of his seminar at Swansea Uni. Specifically to try to unravel the siamese port problem.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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1083 Posts Member #: 8932 Post Whore |
19th Jan, 2012 at 05:53:37pm
I wish i had the money to spare, i would really like to go. Interested to hear what he finds also. |
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 2054 Posts Member #: 452 Post Whore Chester, UK |
19th Jan, 2012 at 06:05:12pm
just posted this on TMF
Here is what we envisage for some of the tech demo's for the seminar:- Firstly we are rounding up a test engine. This is most likely to be an 'A' Series engine and you may well ask why use a technologically outdated test unit. If you thought this then good question. Here is why. Because of the 'A' series engines siamese intake ports there are a jumble of pressure waves which have never (to my knowledge been effectively unraveled. The work that Dave Mountain, David Anton and I did on scatter pattern cams was an attempt at countering the negative issues of a siamese intake port design. All this was done way back in the 1985 - 86 time scale. What we did then was to get a rough (and I mean rough) idea what was going on by virtue on by what can best be described as response testing. This is how it worked. Starting with a supposition you run a tests that if you supposition is any where near right the effect of one test is to improve the output and reversing it decreases it. We did this for every situation that was different. For instance the center pair of exhausts dump into a common port. So did that pair of cylinders need more or less exhaust duration on the cam. Did it need to have a different center line did the LCA need to be tighter or looser for that pair etc. I picked the exhaust here because it was the easiest to use as an example. The intake situation with the robbing of one cylinder by another 180 degrees later is far more complex. Indeed it is more complex than an F1 intake system by far. What we are planning here is to show the value of in-cylinder and port pressure measurement. If we can reveal what is really going on in an 'A' Series intake port feeding two cylinders we will be able to handle F1 stuff with ease. So we need an engine. It looks like Mike Parry of Race Techniques in Cheltenham is going to supply a tricked out 'A' Series engine situation permitting. Mike's engine won the Mini Miglia championship this year by taking 198 points of a possible 200 for a near clean sweep. With the gear they have at Swansea plus the motor sports staff in-house tech know how the stuff we are going to detail in the seminar will be of real interest to all and sundry whether it is a two valve iron headed siamesed port 'A' Series or a killer N/A 2 litre BTCC engine like Dave Mountain builds (That guys torque per liter figures are world standard, beating even the specific torque numbers of 17/1 CR ProStock drag trace engines on trick petrol) or for that matter a 1400 hp 1100 lbs-ft torque carburated, gas burning, relatively cheap 715 incher (11.72 litre) big block Chevy such as I build with my friend Terry Walters. DV interesting read i looks like it could be very interesting if not way over my head lol |
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3594 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
19th Jan, 2012 at 09:44:20pm
On 19th Jan, 2012 wil_h said:
I can see your point stevie. But there is a big differance between making lots of power with lots of boost for a drag car and making a car that will work on the road or a hillclimb. So yes, boost can hide inefficiencies, but it's not all gain-gain. To make high boost you will need a turbo that will most likely not make boost at a sensible rpm. Optimising all VE will mean you can choose a sensible turbo and have the same peak power and a car you can drive. so I think what I said is true, VE is directly related to power and is as relavent to a turbo as an NA. That's my point though. Most cars here are normal road cars albeit with a turbo. I dont think I'm wrong in saying Tom's car doesnt fall into that category ? he also revs to 9500rpm if I read correctly ? How many 5 porters have pushed that high ( although again a 16v head probably lends itself much better to higher rpms ) So on those points you'd absolutely expect the 16v to be much faster, and it is. It's also being pushed far far harder than any 5 ports. Maybe not by boost alone, but by other areas. Obviously a great flowing head, stable valvetrain etc etc will always be of benefit whether boost or n/a. But when boosted the rules just arent as rigid as they might be with a n/a setup. As for DV, there is little doubt he is still right at the forefront of cylinder head development and engine tuning. But I guess he doesnt have anything to prove like some other people trying to break into new careers. As was mentioned on PH. Some of the best engine tuners and head porters etc are people you've never heard of, and probably never will as they keep their customer bases small, and have those customers win races. They dont need to hunt for bigger things 9.85 @ 145mph
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9258 Posts Member #: 123 Post Whore Betwix Harrogate and York |
20th Jan, 2012 at 08:02:44am
DV definately knows his stuff, he's worked in the field for too long for him not to. Which is what dissapointed me about his post. He could have told us about some real breakthrough that he proved with scientific back-to-back testing. But rather than that he decided to tell us an unverified story about an engine he had no involvement with.
Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph
On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:
the design shows a distinct lack of imagination, talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry. |
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1226 Posts Member #: 9271 Post Whore Stoke on Trent |
20th Jan, 2012 at 09:21:59am
To be fair I think his story was just trying to highlight what could be achieved from using his infomation with no prior experience, he's basically trying to sell his tickets for Swansea through pointing out what can be achieved with his testing etc.
On 20th Jan, 2012 wil_h said:
DV definately knows his stuff, he's worked in the field for too long for him not to. Which is what dissapointed me about his post. He could have told us about some real breakthrough that he proved with scientific back-to-back testing. But rather than that he decided to tell us an unverified story about an engine he had no involvement with. one day boost will be mine!
On 10th Mar, 2012 Joe C said:
TBH peple stick it everywhere... and theres merits to each... |
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2054 Posts Member #: 452 Post Whore Chester, UK |
20th Jan, 2012 at 10:35:15am
i kinda agree with what wez said.
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 1849 Posts Member #: 672 The oversills police Oslo, Norway |
20th Jan, 2012 at 11:05:11am
its his dayjob, what do you expect really? |
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Site Admin  9407 Posts Member #: 58 455bhp per ton 12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini Sunny Bridgend, South Wales |
20th Jan, 2012 at 11:20:56am
On 19th Jan, 2012 Paul S said:
I just read on FB that Viz is going to do some cylinder and port pressure testing on a Miglia 5 Port engine as part of his seminar at Swansea Uni. Specifically to try to unravel the siamese port problem. Very interesting. This is true, he will be using the sheepspeed miglia engine On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:
I think the welsh one has it right! 1st to provide running proof of turbo twinkie in a car and first to run a 1/4 in one!! Is your data backed up?? one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials |
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