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robert

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uranus

roberts rotary grenade..
bit of progress ,( probably explode lol be a shame after i spent all that money on the patent ,copyright rcib . mafia etc.lol)




*happy* *happy* *happy*

Edited by robert on 16th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


Paul S

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Looking Good!

Have you got enough washers in there. *wink*

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


robert

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uranus

thats at the setting height stage axel , in the end itll be one .lol

Edited by robert on 16th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


TurboDave16V
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sweet!!! :)

I'm guessing there are nuts underneath given that you've removed the drive strap rivets?

I don't think you'll have a problem with it 'exploding' LOL - the bolts are at a small diameter.
Only prob you'll likely have is a heavy pedal?

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY



fab

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??? interesting stuf!!
so you are doubling the spring in a verto clutch, how will you set up this?
i keep an eye on this!, what about thrust washers load??
what about this turbo on background?
regards

fab


TurboDave16V
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On 06/09/2006 19:03:47 robert said:

im a bit concerned about my measurement that this .076 spring is only 400lb pressure , if a turbo is 960 as dave said ,and .09 something ,then id think this .076 would be more in the 600 range ,but i dont know , whether one could just percentage it up eg turbo .095 minus 20% is .076 so that would make the one i have 960 -20%=768lb hmmm
if anybody could measure the spring thickness of any clutches they have verto or not ,that may help



Hey Robert
I measured my 'turbo verto' setup for you.
OD: 184.50
ID 60.0
Thickness 2.42mm
Has a green splodge of paint on ont of the fingers - clearly some kind of identifier, rather than an accidental spillage LOL

This is the unit I used for my data.

For reference: The big ugly rivets shown previouisly are from the 'non turbo' verto setup??? This version uses a slightly smaller OD than the turbo, and is identifyable as having a ring under the rivets... Or at least every genuine turbo setup I've seen has been this way...

Edited by TurboDave16V on 18th Sep, 2006.

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY



robert

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uranus

thanks a huge amount dave , thats v usefull , that the 95 thou one vscart was on about , this one iv made has a .075 spring and a .083 spring , both out of non turbo clutches , interestingly , there seem to be a lot of difference in the detail design , with some vertos having a thin ring ,some a wide band with the rivets through the band and some with big washers under the rivets , i think the broad band one would be best but i could only find one of those ,so had to make do with rivets of a weird shape one .
i think itll work , it will be far worse than yours from the point of view of pedal weight , but i have little movement on my pedal ,so i will prob use a bigger bore slave ,and have more pedal movement .im guessing at around1250 lb pressure and 400 lb release ,but iv no measurements yet . so that 2.42 was the 960 lb spring ?any pics?
regards robert.

Edited by robert on 18th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


TurboDave16V
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It would of been; aye.

Would you like me to do a quick test on my 'non turbo' ones for you re clamping and release? I won't do a load/deflection - just a clamping assuming a flat diaphram and a release assuming a new friction plate...

If you're lucky - I'll have both thicknesses... If you're not lucky, I'll have just one.

I believe the 'ring' was used on 1275 verto units. I know the 998 verto's didn't have any ring whatsoever - or at least several of the 998 verto units I've got haven't...
I'll take a nosey over some of my spare 1275 units over the weekend and see what they look like (wire/no-wire)...

Edited by TurboDave16V on 18th Sep, 2006.

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY



robert

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uranus

yes that'd be great dave , i was going to pop up to amd tomorrow and use thier hydraulic press again , but its a bit crude as i have to create a lever divider to use the guage cos it goes up to 5 ton! i measured the 1.95,mm at about 400lb and ....200 release , by standing on it on the scales till it coned over centre ! lol; v crude.
interestingly , i also found that the verto pre load was about .5 mm less than it should be for best pressure , so that was similar to the old type ,pre load probs.
robert.

Edited by robert on 18th Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


stevieturbo

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I keep looking at pictures of this clutch...and wondering.
its certainly not a Mini clutch, but the diaphram looks fairly small diameter



http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=61020

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will


robert

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uranus

looks like theyve done the same as ive done steve ,and doubled up the spring ,i tested mine and it makes a lot more pressure , i reckon about double ,and the release seems about 400lb which is about the same as an orange ,so next thing is to make enough power to make it worth putting in .lol

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


Paul S

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Well, that certainly endorses what you have done Robert.

Go on, be brave, put it in the car and tell us how it works.

Pity your bollocks are in line with the flywheel!

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Tom Fenton
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Go for it Robert, if this is proven to work it will be a great low cost way for us to get a reliable clutch that doesn't eat thrust washers.......


On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:


On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else


Like fuel 😂😂


TurboDave16V
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There is a problem looming for the twin diaphram; the work done to disengage the clutch is now doubled... Release 'load' is indeed less (which is good for the thrusts) but this will still have a very, very heavy pedal.

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY



Tom Fenton
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Fearless Tom Fenton, Avon Park 2007 & 2008 class D winner

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Surely compared to options currently available, (not counting your clutch dave) pedal effort is quite an easy one to address by changing slave cylinder bore size?


On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:


On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else


Like fuel 😂😂


Dangerous

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On 21/09/2006 20:41:41 Axel said:


Go on, be brave, put it in the car and tell us how it works.

Pity your bollocks are in line with the flywheel!


Best get someone with a LHD to test it*tongue*


Metro turbo weekend driver,Mini turbo in the making again!



TurboDave16V
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Not easilly Tom - if you increase the bore, you run out of travel at the master, and your clutch doesn't fully dis-engage.
I'm interested to see how this turns out though - a balance point is no doubt achievable through R&D

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY



Sprocket

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On 21/09/2006 22:24:49 TurboDave said:

There is a problem looming for the twin diaphram; the work done to disengage the clutch is now doubled...


Id be concerned about condition of the thrust/ throw out sleave. Make sure its nothing less than the best you can get hold of*wink*

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


stevieturbo

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But will a twin diaphram be any heavier to operate than the old Mini covers ????

Unless you adapt the system to move your foot more, doesnt matter what master slave combo you have, pedal pressure is directly related to cover pressure.

Of course, servo assistance is one option.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will


TurboDave16V
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On 22/09/2006 01:55:39 stevieturbo said:

But will a twin diaphram be any heavier to operate than the old Mini covers ????



I believe it would be, yes.

Remember when you're pressing your pedal, you're applying a load, over a distance. i.e WORK.

Release pressure is only the same as clamping pressure on a plain 1:1 diaphram spring like on the pre-verto.

The verto on the other hand, has an 'inbuilt' leverage, hence the clutch arm ratio is less - ie less leverage in the arm itself - witness the shorter arm!

BUT the leverage ratio of the arm MULTIPLIED by the leverage ratio of the fingers will always be something like the same as if you were to operate the verto diaphram like a pre-verto.
Verto's will never be quite as 'efficient' in theory as a pre-verto, as the fingers themselves bend slightly in operation - effectivly wasting 'work' from the pedal.

Basically - if you want to have a higher clamping load, your pedal load will be higher.
Always?
No - not always... The key is optimisation. For example - pukka race diaphrams might look just as thick or almost the same as a pattern diaphram, but it could be very much different in clamp/release characteristics...

But basically if you took a Verto diaphram, and cut it out such that it was the same diameters as a pre-verto diaphram spring, and fitted it into a pre-verto diaphram assembly - the pedal effort would be virtually the same (with the correct long clutch arm).

Basically - the WORK DONE at the pedal was the SAME (aside from taking up slack/tolerances, deflection of the verto fingers, etc, etc...)

Edited by TurboDave16V on 22nd Sep, 2006.

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Ready to feel Ancient ??? This is 26 years old as of 2022 https://youtu.be/YQQokcoOzeY



robert

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uranus

i think the release pressure should ..be around 400lb , basically twice the 200 i measured on the test .an unknown factor that comes into this , is the friction between ,the 2 springs ,time will tell.

from what i can tell the orange dia is 400lb and the greys around the 500lb and 550lb range ,so it may be fine even with no slave cyl change ,.
as i said earlier , on my car at the mo with a turbo verto in , i seem to have a very small amount of pedal movement and then its disengaged well b4 i get to the floor ,so i can put in a larger bore slave ,and utilise that extra range .
i have to get a flywheel machined to give the right install hieght thuogh ,cos its deff not flattening out the spring enough on the test pressure plate im using which is about half worn . wonder wether to try to take out the rivets on the flywheel or to just machine them away and do withuot !*oh well*

Edited by robert on 22nd Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


robert

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uranus

oh ,the other thing pending is finding some hardened washers to replace the packing washers ,cos i think the steel ring will fret into the face of the packing washer and send a small semi circle of shapnell out of the clutch assembly ... *frown* which may sting for a second.

Edited by robert on 22nd Sep, 2006.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


Sprocket

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Armour plate the bulkhead, LOL.

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


robert

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uranus

update on the washers , just found em ! moly tempered hardened and so on and the right thickness , , so they are on the way here by wed .nice job. *happy*

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


robert

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uranus

here is the finished twin spring verto clutch

,to get the spring to sit flat required 1mm off the mounting posts ,also shown is my skim of the back of the flywheel to lighten it ,total assembly with turbo plate is approx 23 lbs . this compares to 19 lbs of the verto in my car which was lightened more and has one spring etc ,and around 15 lbs for a lightened pre verto assembly. the hardened washers came from arp so should be fine . my estimation is that this will have a clamped pressure of 1300 lb rising to 1600 lbs as it wears .release pressure should at most be 400 lbs , but obviously using the verto short arm leverage with the diaphragm spring fingers prviding on the one hand less leverage ,and on the other more leverage , it remains to be seen how it will feel in the car .im guessing about the same as a grey ..thats all folks ,on to the next project !!
*smiley*

regards robert .













Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

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