Hypothetical Q
Turbo Mini Forums

A quick hypothetical Q for all you brainy peeps (and you can read hypothetical as either "I'm doing it, but being sneakey" or as "I'm just curious" )

If I were to Bi-charge a small-bore engine, I'd prefer to have an intercooler after the turbo and another one after the 'charger, but obviously, there's not a great deal of space - especially in a roundnose.

So my question is thus - if it were you, would you rather:

a) have a pretty damned small intercooler after both, with one of them having limited airflow

b) just cool the turbo

c) just cool the 'charger

d) spend a fair bit, and get a custom 'cooler built, to fit in the limited space I'll have up-front

e) fit 2 reasonable size 'coolers where the inner-wings would be, with fans on them to keep heat-soak down to a mimimum when stopped


Now remember, swapping to a clubman - whilst being the obvious option, is out of the question, as my other half is only letting me do this, if it stays roundnose (insert "under the thumb" smily here)






Also, has anyone on here had any success with liquid Co2 coolers? As they may be a great help on this "hypothetical" engine

"Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."


Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

One of the main aspects of choosing a cooler is its efficiency, the more efficiently you can cool the air (greatest temp drop, least restriction) the better!

By fitting multiple intercoolers in opposite wings the length of hosing alone would be a restriction, and hoses themselves aren't cheap.

When you say limited room for a cooler Is there considerably less room than any other mini for some reason?

Personally I would have one intercooler in an area of good airflow...keeps things tidy (no messing around running water hoses/wires for fans etc).

Have you had a look at others installs of intercoolers, as this could give you some idea of what "off the shelf" intercoolers can be used and where they can be fitted?

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

I'm planning on a) both, because I'm going to fit a clubmen front.

If you are limited to just one then it wants to be the last thing before the carb/throttle body.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

there's going to be a fair bit less room than most minis, and what I'd like to achieve may be extremely difficult, and plauged with problems.


Basically, I'd be using an 8-port head (not the usual ones either - this one I'm keeping a secret) I'm going to try and replicate the plenum chamber that Audi used on their race-cars, but I cant for the life of me remember what they called it. Plus I would be trying to fit a front-mounted rad, along with pully-powered scavenge pumps

I also have to add, that any bulges/etc, are going to have to be kept to a minimum, and I'm going to try and keep the standard late-style brake servo if at all possible, as the turbo will be placed on top of the clutch housing




There is of course, one thing which is going to make my life easier - I'm not fussed about throttle response





Any ideas for a small supercharger? As I may have to make do with an ex-bini item, but they are rather large for the amount of boost/flow I need it to make.

"Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."


Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

Lol, I see what you mean about no space.

If you fit megajolt and a Jap alternator and maybe remote oil filter, then that would free up some space. You may be able to fit a thin IC and Rad at the front (IC in front) and only have to space the grill out a tad?

Im going to have a similar problem with my next build so it would be good to find out how you get on. Ive been measuring and measuring but it doesn't compensate for having everything in place and visually offering things up!

Mini13 is doing an 7 port build, i'll get the link for you.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=119064

Edited by matty on 21st May, 2007.

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www.fusionfabs.co.uk



1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

The way I see it is that it is only worth going down the supercharger and turbocharger route if you are looking for a serious amount of boost, say above 20 psi. This is the point when the efficiency of single stage boosting is starting to become inefficient and more boost does not equate to more power because the blower is heating the air too much.

If you want more than 20 psi, the Bini M45 is starting to get inefficient on a 1275 and you should be looking at the Merc M62. The Bini blower will be great on a 998.

If you don't want more than 20 psi, then you have to question if it all worth the hastle.

I would not put the rad at the front if you want space for intercoolers. Use a side rad with an electric fan. A front rad is just going to heat all the air under the bonnet so that the intercoolers will not work so well. With the side rad, the hot air goes into the wheelarch.

I doubt you will get a turbo mounted over the clutch housing with the standard servo in place. I fact, I'm sure it will not be possible.

Edited by Paul S on 21st May, 2007.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Agree with Axel re: mounting turbo over the flywheel housing with late type servo there; there simply isn't the room, I have the late servo on my car and even squeezing intercooler pipes past is a challenge.

Whats the problem with mounting the turbo behind the block, head shouldn't make too much of a difference as the turbo sits lower than the head.

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1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

What about using a pair of water/air chargecoolers instead. They are nice compact units but a little pricey. Better bet is probably a custom intercooler. As for small superchargers, eaton do an m24 which is nice and small but don't know the specs on it off hand but they are using it on some brazialian fiesta.

point taken about the radiator, never thought about it in the sence that it would simply be dumping extra heat into the engine bay

And I re-thought the turbo today at work, and I'd already decided to fit a turbo box, and locate it down there


And boost will be around the 20-25psi level (I'm hoping, that's if I can fit a decent intercooler with my "secret" mod ) But if it looks too bleak, then I may just ditch the 'charger, but only if there really isn't enough space


and antman - I like your thinking! As I could locate the radiators for the charge coolers somewhere else (boot?)



Any other suggestiosn for a smaller 'charger would be much appreciated though, as the Bini item really is a beast for what I need

cheers so far everyone

"Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."


Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

lol, unfortunatly, my knowledge doesnt go that far - but I'd love to learn! (subtle hint there )

Basically, all I'm after from the 'charger, is approx 4-8 psi - essentially, just anti-lag. But if there's a more sensible option (which doesn't involve rebuilding the turbo every 1000 miles, or N20) then I will readily look into it


This "hypothetical" engine is really just an experiment, if it would work, I'll get to work on it, if it doesn't, at least I'll know not to try it again, or at least, change the design

has anyone on here got an air-water charge cooler? And are there any suppliers you'd reccomend?






I'm not claiming to know it all (FAR from it) so any help/knowledge you can give, will be taken in. And if I ask something which has already been asked, just slap me, and tell me to stop being lazy, and search for it

"Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."


Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

pace are good for charge coolers

The maths to claculate the air flows etc are on the Garrett website:



For combined supercharger and turbocharger you need to add a couple of extra stages, one for the supercharger and another for the additional intercooler.

You can then size the turbo and supercharger. Assuming that you are running filter-turbo-cooler-super-cooler-engine, once you have an air mass flow rate you then have to adjust it according to the density of the charge to work out the supercharger air flow at atmospheric inlet conditions.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

This document probably explains the calcs in a simpler, more logical manner.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Anarchist
not trying to put you off buddy

hope you have a nice Bank ballance, plenty of time and the skills to match

if you have a girl, wife thought your snookerd
unless she is into the spanners as well

Benross -time is on my hands, as I'm not looking at getting the car finished for at least another year, and I've known from the start that costs will more than likely spiral up and up.........



..........but my god - it should be worth it in the end!

cheers for the info Axel, I'll get my face into them tonight over dinner (oh the other half's going to be SO happy)

"Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."


Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

Well, after a long chat with a few colleagues at work, I've now had a change of heart.......



Instead of just nabbing the head from my "secret" engine, I'll just use the whole damned thing! It's only 1L, but its perfectly square, has an all-alloy engine, has a ladder-frame for the crank bearing caps, and has floating lininers!!

So instead of going-all out on a mini engine, I'll just make-do with turboing this engine, as it'll be a big enough challenge just to fit it, let alone fit two types of 'charger in the engine bay as well!




But a big thanks to everyone who helped, especially you Axel, as you've now furthered my knowledge

"Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids,
we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."


Kristian Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.