Gross misconduct or self defence?
Turbo Mini Forums

Last wednes eve (outside of work) at the local sports centre I was confronted by one of our apprentices from work, the little sod was spoiling for a fight, but being in a public place and that there was children presnt I very reluctantly backed down, said my piece and that was it. He has got a bunt on as he didnt get his payrise which is achievement bassed and holds me responsable as im his senior our bosses ask us how we think he has done etc etc.
I thought that was the end of it untill sat am, I had cleaned and polished the mini in our workshop and left it there as it is easier to walk from my missis to collect it and head to pod than it is for me to run it home. The cu** was in there sat am as he was working, basically to cut a long story short, the bast**d had a pop at me phisically, I grab him bt the throat and we end up on the deck as he mangage to get me off balence but after wrestling with him I regained the upper hand and have him oinned to the groung again by his throat, I shout abuse at him (usual you effing c** ull only make that mistake once etc etc!!!) I get up and leave for pod.
Where do I stand, my action was in self defence, I never hit the sod (althogh now all the shit im getting I wish I had!!!) my missus was there too, she saw nothing but heard it all, 5 mins after I pitch my tent on sat my boss is on the phone demanding me go in the office on mon am, go in this morn to find the runt has beel tellin a hugh fairytale of events of what happened! Ill be the first to admit I have a foul temper, amd everyone knows I have but5 never would resort to violence, and he is the son of a copper, butter woulnt melt, or so they think. bottom line is, im now beeing disaplinned for gross misconduct which is instant dismissal!
What do I do? its his word v mine, and I feel i havent a leg to stand on, bosses believe the boy as he came off worse, and my misssus didnt see anything? The loosing the job side of things I can handle as had been offered another job last week, the down side is loosing the use of the workshop as have been using it for storage and building stuff for the minus.
Any advise appreciated.
Shane.

Edited by shane on 22nd Sep, 2007.

Nut the boss.
No, best thing might be to take him to court. If youve got proof of him kicking off in public, you might have an edge but again this could go the other way. Either way catch 22.
You got bruises? More proof.

Back once again like a renegade master

I would sooooo love to!!
I have a massive gash down the back of my leg, and a little bruising (not a great pic) most of the marks are superfiscal but the main one although it doent look it is bloody deep, where we fell and slid on a pile of old cold store pannels.
Shane

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it sounds a bit of 50/50 tbh mate - unless they have proof that you did kick off and video evidence that you physically assaulted him then thats reasonable doubt and all they can really do is give you a talking to about your temper. if you do lose your job take the little git to court for lost earnings or accuse him of assault first since its classed as a motion towards not hitting someone - thats abh or so i was advised by a lawyer last yr

I know its not 50/50, so does my other half, but its just proving it, not gonna be easy. A few of the other lads I work wit have had probs with him too, but not as severe, so hoping that will go in my favour. With regards to my temper even my bosses know my bark is far worse than my bite, so that doesnt bother me too much. Been working there just over 8 yrs, never had anyprobs before or been dragged into the office for a royaling, so Im hoping they will realise his allegations are way out of charictor for me. O well not going to stress over it, will find out in the morning, I mean the worst they can do is fire me, just dont like the idea of the boy getting the last laugh!
Also sorry for the pic of my leg, prob the last thing a few of you wanted to see, prob preffere a pic of my sister lol!!!
Shane.

They'd struggle to uphold gross misconduct if there were no witnesses, you could probably take them to court if they sacked you on such grounds.

At the end of the day if your boss belives a little shit over you in an instant you should address wether its worth working there. Remember you have a way of pinning it on him since you put him down for a pay rise, definate motive.

Edited by andeh on 21st Aug, 2007.

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

That is true, thats what the missus keeps tellin me. my contract states anyone found or proved of misconduct faces instant dismissal, which I have no prob with as long as we are both shown the door for what happend, but if he stays and I get the boot, that takes the piss!
This has definatly made me rethink the 8 years of good service I have givin, tempted to hand in my notice as im unhappy with the way this has been dealt with,m but thats another story!
Shane.

8 years of good service !!
this will hold good for you

been there in the past
funny what Life throughs at you

dont go down with out stating your case!
and take no shit! dont get heated at the inquest ?

theres life beyond this buddy

make sure you get a refrence a good one if you bow out ? WITTEN!

your a man first and take no shit!

The last thing im going to take is any shit, especially caused by that little bas***d. I have tryed arguing my points and accounts of events today but feel that it wasnt taken on board. Have been on the phone to one of my senior coleges this eve and he is also far from happy with how this has been dealt with, especially as he had heard a different rendition of events to what acually happened, which Im also really hoping will go in my favour, as he is one of the only engineers we have my boss will take notice of his views. As long as tomorrows outcome is achieved by fair means and I feel that may point and opions have been taken on board and concidered, and that I havent just been ignored, and they have taken into concideration that I have been a poblem free employee for a long period, ill be happy, even if the the outcome is me employed or not.
thanks for the support guys, nice to have an unbias oppinion, gonna sleep on it now, will let you know how I get on tomorrow.
Cheers
Shane.

Even if they dismiss you,you can go to a tribunal.Usually a company will offer cash to settle outside so you should get some compensation.And the other guy should definitely be sacked!

'Where does the engine go?'

Well he has a motive for attacking you, i.e. not getting his pay rise which he obviously blames you for. Why would you be having a go at him? What for fun? 8 years of good conduct will stand you in good stead but obviously the only reason why you are being called into question is because of the rubbish he has been telling them. I guess you need to refute what he is saying which souldn't be too hard if he has proved himself to be an upstart with a few others!

If he didn't get his payrise, he should of gone through the proper channels. Unlucky Shane, just stick to your guns mate.

There are two sides to every story.

Apprentice?..young, gobby, thinks the world revolves around him?

Probably the type of youth that can give it but can't take like alot of these out of control oiks are these days.

I had one of these in my local gobbing off pissed at me about my beer belly. after ignoring it for a while I gave him some abuse back, he offered me out, i accepted, he ended up in hospital for a night and I pleaded self deffence as he throw the first punch!...twat learnt a lesson. It went to court as he bleeted to the law...I got away scot free as he did start it...result!

Go in there and explain the previous confrontation, If your boss has any respect for you I am sure it will come to nothing.

I bet it is not first first or last time this twat has pulled a stunt like that...

Good luck, JF.

Agree with JF - bet he's done this before.

if its your word against his, and your his senior, i cannot see the problem.

Inform your supperiors of the facts.

If they decide against either you, its unfair dismmissal time surely...?

BAC

"Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun"

"did you know you can toast potato waffles?"

In my opinion the salient point in all this is that others at the firm have had bother with this guy before. I would get these people to put this down in writing, you can then present this to your superiors in any disciplinary process, with the other guys at your level your argument will be much stronger if you present a united front.

I GOT FUCK**G SHAFTED!
Went in the workshop this morning, one of my bosses say to me, before I went in to see the director "just take what he says and come out, and leave it" great start to the day so I end up going in to see him more fucked off than what I was, dispite all my points being made, and saying everything I wanted to and what I thought was realevant, the bast*** listened to none of it, he wouldnt have the fact the boy has been an issue, he couldnt see that reasoning behind me saying with how he is it was only a matter of time before it happened, if not with me then someone esle.
I basically cameout of it feeling as If I wasted my timeand the proceedure has not been dealt with fairly, its as if he had already made up his mind and nothing and noone would change it! He kept using the "i was out of line and should of known better" line, but in reality what do you do?? say to your asailent hang on, gimme a mo, I just need to seriously think this through before you attack me??!!! My senior engineer who I have spoken to last night about this is also far from happy about how this has been dealt with, and is going to take it up with the boss himself, as he knows how much of a shite the boy is, feels like at the moment he is the only one in my corner. The other lads I work with have experienced issues with the boy, but when they talked to my boss about it, it was dismissed in the same way my reports have been. Im sick of the whole thing at the moment.
I recieved a written and final warning, and have had all "workshop out of hours privileges" revoked, and the boy didnt even get a verbal warning, not even for his provoction on wednesday, IT TAKES THE PISS! as im "STILL employed" by the firm im still scheduled to continue the work away I was to be doing next week, I think I would (from a finacial point of view) be stupid not see this through (as its a chuffing great little earner) and there has been no resolution made upon my return, I think its time for my notice to be handed in! Im not going to put up with it, not after so many years good service. At least if I leave with a warning its better than going to a prospective employer sayin I got sacked for misconduct.
BUT, the thing that fu*** me off the most is I had to "sinceerly" apologise the the little get! I had to appologise for being confronted, its a fooking joke!
Thanks for the advise gents, it is appreciated (as always)
Shane.

Good thing you did restrain yourself a bit then mate. Speaking from an apprentices POV theres no point confronting those you work with since youre supposed to be learning from them, he gives younger people a bad rep. I would follow this up with some form of complaint about how the mater was dealt with tbh mate - doesnt sound like the boss did things 100% correct - were there 2 witnesses in the disciplinary meeting? one from his side and one from yours? if not then he cant very well give you a warning at all - even a verbal one

DO you have to have whitnesses? if you do then im laughing as it was just me and two bosses? Hmmmmmm
Shane.

yes in a disciplinary there has to be at least one INDEPENDANT witness to any action taken and ideally a transcript of what was said. without that they may as well have not had the meeting at all. Thats pretty basic HR management, one of the more useful things my aunt told me (head of HR at a national company) the same thing happened at my last job with them trying to give me warnings without a witness and nothing came of it in the end - hope the same happens for you mate and it all gets sorted - I'd have a word with a solicitor tb and just confirm that the law hasnt changed in the last year since things like this tend to be either a grey area or quite fluid - dont let them do you over!!

dont let them do you over!!

Im sure it must be worth seeking advice from the Labour relations agency etc.
If there are no witnesses etc...surely they cant just throw you in the shit like this, based on one persons story ? Might be worth starting a proper grievance procedure...all down in black and white.


But another thing....surely it might be worth while making a statement to the police, that this guy assaulted you ?
Although with his father being a cop, Im amazed he hasnt reported you for assault.
Of course there are some honest cops out there. But I know of far more 2 faced lying bastard cops ( including their families ) than honest ones, and they know all to well, they will always be believed.

failing that, rob your employer blind before you leave :)

The worst thing about work....as I have learned recently. Is that employers can do whatever the fuck they like, and we cant do anything about it.
To fight your case, usually costs money ( unless you have union backing etc ), and for most normal people, being able to afford to fight, just doesnt happen. Especially when you will never get a satisfactory outcome anyway.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Well, It is done with now.
Avoid him.

He WILL do it to someone else at some point. Or, he'll do it again to you. At which point, he will be out of there (in theory)...

I'd definately get some 6" round nails in the lathe and drill a 1mm hole through them. Propped up against tyres, they work a trick. Even better if you pop them close to the sidewall where they can't be repaired.

Well you have the answer, your director is more of a pillock than the kid!

Get the engineer guy who's on your side more involved to help get a speedy resolution, arrange a meeting with the dick senior managment, engineer and yourself, do a letter stating your unhappy with the way its been handled, and that company procedures have not correctly followed (especially the fact you didn't have a witness of your choice at the meeting). Get your workmates to sign saying they had problems with the guy.
If after the meeting the warning is not removed from your file then if you want you can can resign, it is then constructive dismissal as your position within the company was made impossible (working with the guy who assaulted you and no action being taken against him, lack of trust etc)
You take the firm to a tribunal - result.

Its VITAL to document everything, conversations are worth fuck all, get it all written down.

Rich

Here for the craic..

Supercharged Arden powered