SUPERCHARGER COOLING?
Turbo Mini Forums

Anyone toyed with the idea of using a couple of thin cpu fans on top of the m45 casing on a suck through set up to aid chargecooling or will it not cool enough? i was just thinking because to fans mounted above, even if blowing the ambient air temp of engine bay would still be cooler than sc casing any thoughts?:) p.s used em on an oil cooler to good effect just dont know if its the same for sc casing

The phrase 'pissing in the wind' seems appropriate here.

CPU fans could aid in cooling after a run, but definately not intercooling.

The M45 generates heat (into the charge air) as it compresses and moves the air, not by heat absorbed from the casing.

Edited by turbodave16v on 14th Apr, 2008.

Cool i think that answers that then. The only reason i mentioned was because vmaxscart have a setup where a heat sink is affectively placed on top cooled by rad fluid thus cooling casing just wondered if this would have a similar effect ? stu reckons hes had pretty good results just by cooling the casing caused by the forced induction process.

Just Selotape some frozen peas on there!

In the 13's at last!.. Just

Peas eh ? what about a cryogenicly frozen lettuce?:)

Peas have a larger surface area.

In the 13's at last!.. Just

LOL!!!!

Would have thought that cooling just one side of the case would not be a good thing.
Regards
Dave

I was thinking about 8mm pipe wound around the carb intake pipe and run water via a small pump to a small rad like an oil cooler but it sounds this wouldn't make much difference as above.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

Here for the craic..

Supercharged Arden powered

One of my problems with the suck through system is the pressure drop you get between the carb and blower causes the pipe to get cold. Hence the dT is causing a fair degree of heat transfer, I expect. Lag that up and it should save a nano-nana.

If you put the blower where it should be (around the front) it will get cooled by the airflow anyway

Bugger off, I'm getting there.

the compressor can be ported to put less heat into the charge to begin with.

Endyn have a few pics up on what you can do.


and as efficiency drops quite badly at higher boost levels everything that can be done to keep boost down with increased mass air flow (porting, low pack pressure exhaust) is good.

of course get an IC as well..

wel nothing you would not know allready i guess

Edited by Sir Yun on 22nd Apr, 2008.

That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system

http://aseriesmodifications.wordpress.com/

I'd put money on petrol in the suck through making the blower more efficient, probably by a fair margin. (5% ish at a guess). I would also expect that if you ported the compressor, you would be at risk of sodding up an aspect of it. I wouldn't port the thing myself. Not even clean it up a bit.

Bugger off, I'm getting there.

hmm..

when you port a head you run the same risk.. not too bad on a 998cc 5 porter but a lot less nice on a honda head.. still, with judgement and a gentle touch it can be done.

5% efficiency is a tad optimistic. I seem to remember reading that while the theory works, testing did not reveal gains..(but i can't find the article..anymore)

That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system

http://aseriesmodifications.wordpress.com/

The point is that blower efficiency is partially down to passing air over the rotors. If you tried to blow 45psi, you'd get a lot of recirculation. That's obvious, then you take the thermal energy involved in each side and pass some of the hot stuff back. It gets a lot hotter and then the situation is made worse. Assuming your drive belt can hack the forces required.

So, if you have a liquid which will partially (again temperature dependent) coat the rotors, you cut down the space for blowby and you also have the dHv of the fuel itself. Heat it up and it evaporates, therefore being a heat sink. These 2 processes are real and calculable, they should be very observable in a test. You also have the homogeneity of the fuel which has been well "mixed" and will burn faster and smoother.

Going right back to the problem, the snag with a rootes blower is repass. You can make that worse by interfering in any way with the surface that the rotors land on, I think there is adequate space for adequate flow elsewhere. Then you are looking at shifting more gas through the system, see longer cam, bigger ports/valves/etc.

The biggest restrictions being in the head as documented by Vizard. I would leave the blower well alone. You could do it, but it would be mental horsepower. Like polishing your spark plugs.

I don't like suck through, I think that it's about as out of date as possible, due to the fact that you can't cool it, however, if you are running lowish boosts and getting the most out of the engine, I think it has an advantage, due to the efficiency of the blower increasing.

I would put some pretty fat money down that 6psi though a blower allows more advance/power than a blow through. (no chargecooling).

I do think that high performance suck through is very 40's in technology, but it still works. If you were aiming for the best output, I suppose you could use injection and have a combination of blow and suck through as well as intercooling, you would have to have enough fuel to do the blower business and evaporate totally and not allow condensation in the intercooler, you could then get the best of both worlds, but if you were mucking about like that, you may as well get a lysholm compressor from somewhere and relish that at full tilt, it's drawing about 30 bananas. Then you have to consider a staged turbo and blower and then you realise it's just a mini and settle for less.

They are only mini's and 130hp and a 3.65 final drive is about as far as you want to go IMO.

Bugger off, I'm getting there.

one Top Forced induction guy wrote.......AKA... CORKY BELL

A suck through system is a DEAD FISH!
forget it.

i would suggest mount the blower on the front so it pumps air in to the carb ....... a blow through system,
then feed that air into an intercooler

NOW you make at least a 1/3 more power for FREE!! for the same boost

qoute CORK BELL again ... an intercooler is no the icing on the cake its MORE CAKE!

Edited by BENROSS on 23rd Apr, 2008.

hiya..

(on the risk of being found a wiseass.. which i am )

i don't think we are disargeeing..

the eatons like to move air (it is a blower after all) not compress it . Anything that can make flow easier is good as it reduces pumping losses.

i did not make up the porting of blowers.. Magnussen et al. made a buisness out of it. Eaton incorporated a lot of it into the newer generation of blowers so gain may be less with a m45 as they are the latest gen.

http://www.stiegemeier.com/blower.html



i have no hard data but i very much doubt that fuel will be better mixed bettter after being chourned by the blower.. it seems reasonable that you batter the fuel out of suspension... then again.. a 5 port head does like it a bit wet it seems

of course if would be very very unwise to mess with the mating surface of the eaton. (or 'touch up' the rotors as they are epoxy (isch) coated) .but it has an in and an out port with can be modified to match the phase of the rotors better..it is not like polishing spark plugs.

well..

just to get back to the original question.

fans on the blower? no get a frigging big IC. but we kinda agreed on that one.

I like blow through better. But regardless of the intercooler the blower will get very hot if you would try to make it do high boost to a point where the coating of the rotors will fail and the whole thing will start interfering with the casing..

suck through will provide some cooling there (as long as you don't hydrolic it)

now that is the thing that cooling the blower housing might be good for...


and yes a lysholm would be the bomb.. if only i could find/afford one.. well i'll have to make due with a GT17 i guess.

:)

Edited by Sir Yun on 23rd Apr, 2008.

That sir, is not rust, it is the progressive mass reduction system

http://aseriesmodifications.wordpress.com/

Right so the bottom line is if youre running no more than 7-8psi dont touch it leave as is .p.s not after mental nanas but however if u want more- can the suck through and go blow through with i/c .

Stupid wrong idiot. See below!

Edited by turbodave16v on 23rd Apr, 2008.

Interesting i thought it was the suck through that buggered the rotors as its not meant to have petrol running through it ?

I think you've got that backwards haven't you TD? As in the blow and suck relating to the carb not the s/c.

Damn - I got that all to cock!!

But the Eaton's STILL don't like suck through. They are stated as blow-thru only; sure you can suck thru, but the seals and the rotor coatings will suffer. Do it once, do it right.

That is actually right. They specifically say "no suck through" and if you were to clean it with celly thinners, you'd find out why..... notice what celly thinners does to "muck" compared to petrol... Unleaded now has a fair amount of toluene/xylene in it....aka celly thinners, you can smell it.

You can find cheap lysholm blowers on the bay out of Mazda Millenias, they have a 1L pass and an electric declutch, but the snag is that they're quite big.

Coming back to the fact that they are actually mini's and the whole point is being able to do it for 1/3 of the price. I'd say blow through with a fair size intercooler and working on shifting volume with a longer cam, higher CR and lower boost, bigger capacity.

It's never going to make 15PSI, otherwise, you will be using most of your horsepower to heat the charge!

I would never go suck through, just because it's shit and if you ask me, a 1/3/4" carb is strangling a modest 1380, so if you are making it pretend that it's on an 1800cc or similar, you are looking at having shitty fuelling.

I assume that's why "our man" sucks through a weber on proper jobs. Gets the progression.

I reckon that blowing through twin su's would give ok results as I am 100% convinced that a log manifold doesn't help with easy flow. Forget mixture separation. If you have a load of droplets going down the centre of the port with no twist on them, they will get into the cylinder and be emulsified.

By the way dave. Can you find the solution to this task?

"Put a grey plate force on the end of a mini crank (with rods attatched) and measure the amount it deforms"

I was thinking about thrusts and reckon my 2 clutch cylinders idea is a very good one. One of my engines has got mega slop in no time.

Bugger off, I'm getting there.