for us faster driving novices, driving techniques!!!
Turbo Mini Forums

if possible could someone explain the reasons why you'd use double de-clutching
heel & toe etc (i do)
drag racing fast starts how too do it correctly!

plz add to these techniques if you know more & maybe it may be good for the how to or beginners section

SKYLINES ARE LIKE CLITS, EVERY FLANGE SEEMS TO HAVE ONE: see this sticker on my silvia

the Search-section on this forum is blummin superb & simple to use, unlike some other forums, without the search-section & the help of this bunch of chaps on here i'll never be able to !!!Start the day with a 998cc turbo!!! :) i'm getting closer though!

Tom Fenton says: I have it all, make me an offer

heal toe i do to bring the revs up when changing down gear to make for a smoother and less jolty gear change also to help slow me down,

As for double de-clutching, i havent ever seen a reason to do it even in the mini, its ment to as far as i know help get the car into gear but i never do somtimes dont even use the clutch going 3rd to 4th if im driving hard.

drag racing fast starts is somthing you have to learn everyone has there own ways of doing it, fwd i have the handbreak up and about 4000rmp and get the clutch just biting and then realease it up quickly but not dropping it to try and keep as much traction as possible but doesnt always work somtimes you get just burnt clutch :). if im driving my old mans car again rev to 4-4.5k and drop the clutch but thats RWD making sure traction control is off ofcourse :)

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I double declutch (clutch down, in to neutral, clutch up, match revs, clutch down, in to second, clutch up) going from third to second on a my mini as the syncros aren't great.

Heal and toe is so you can brake and match revs at the same time. This is done (i think) to not upset the balance of the car with engine braking.

Drag race starts... Fenton and Nic are waaaaay better qualified to answer this than me. But i've always done it like this: hold the car on the handbrake, clutch just on or below bite point (if in a turbo car I left it slip a bit to build a little boost) and revs held at about 3k. At green light, drop the handbrake and feed in the throttle. Depending on grip and the power of the car depends on how much, a lot of wheelspin is as bad as bogging down.

I may be wrong on all of this and happy to be corrected...

i can understand the double de-clutching, i suppose it takes pressure off some of the gearbox components or if the synchros are a little buggered, we've all been there!

are there other techniques, i'm asking as i'd like to change my driving style a bit, preferably to be a bit more mechanicly sympathetic as i'm quite hard on cars i think through driving hard in all gears, i drive like a granny in ther ppls cars though!

i do the heel n toe thing & find that easy enough, the double de-clutch i need to practice a bit though

SKYLINES ARE LIKE CLITS, EVERY FLANGE SEEMS TO HAVE ONE: see this sticker on my silvia

the Search-section on this forum is blummin superb & simple to use, unlike some other forums, without the search-section & the help of this bunch of chaps on here i'll never be able to !!!Start the day with a 998cc turbo!!! :) i'm getting closer though!

Tom Fenton says: I have it all, make me an offer

you shouldn't nee dto doublr de clutch in anuy modern car, it was used by old gits in even older cars, fitted with non syncro boxes, [ crash boxes],

i never sould get my head round why you would need to DDC, it was almost an admitance that your hydraulic clutch leaked so bad you had to press the pedal twice to change gear,

i owned such a ar way back, 28 yrs ago,

a 1954 Ford Prefect 100 E , my first car , the girls loved it because it was different, but it was an unreliable cold thirsty smelly pile of ill handling shite in reality,
and i had to DDC sometimes , but i wasn't that old at the time,


carl

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

Heel and toe WITH double de clutch is very useful in down shifts even with the Mini's synchromesh. It makes for easier down shifts without the hard shift feel/ crunch, which makes life of the synchros easier.

I only learned it for rallying, and I find myself doing it without thinking about it now when driving the mini hard. Once you get used to the sequence, down shifts and braking together become just a little faster and smoother. We all know trying to get the Mini into gear on a down shift takes a bit longer time. Perhaps one of those things TD keeps going on about with those small baulk rings

Makes the hard braking, gearchange then hand brake turn so much easier to perform in the normaly short time you have, lol.

Heael and toe and double de clutch go together, whats the point of heel and toe if you dont double de clutch? excepting the rear wheel drive rally boys who use heel and toe to break the back end away in a corner by breaking while still on the gas. Those guys use it in all sorts of wierd and wonderfull ways, its like ballet in the driving seat

Edited by Sprocket on 10th Oct, 2008.

the other reason i'm asking is becouase i went to see autotesting at ragley hall 3yrs ago, looks a good way to learn these skills, & of course the mini is a good car for it!

cheers for that explination sprocket! thats made some sence
combing the 2 is gonna take some practice! i need a cheapo car out the bargain section to practice this i reckon, somat i could scrap after! i know most wont agree with very late night industrial estate antics on a damp road to pratice this stuff but........that'll be me lol not with boy racer chavs though! thats just a bit poncy to me

right off to youtube for more research then i'll hit some more sites on the subject!

SKYLINES ARE LIKE CLITS, EVERY FLANGE SEEMS TO HAVE ONE: see this sticker on my silvia

the Search-section on this forum is blummin superb & simple to use, unlike some other forums, without the search-section & the help of this bunch of chaps on here i'll never be able to !!!Start the day with a 998cc turbo!!! :) i'm getting closer though!

Tom Fenton says: I have it all, make me an offer

Start off with the sequence slowley. Once you have the sequence right, you can then think about speeding it up. It takes a LONG time and LOTS of practice, which means LOTS of Mini driving

The passengers in my car are pretty much non the wiser, except for maybe a slightly jerkey braking feel at times, but the motion is that fast, they either dont comprehend whats going on, or just dont realise at all :)

So the sequence is

Brake, dip clutch, move gear to nutral, release clutch, blip the throttle ( while still braking), dip the clutch, engage lower gear or two, release clutch, release brake, back on the power, turn in and accelerate.

Get all your braking / gearchange done before the corner, scrub off only the speed necisary to get round the corner, into the corner fast as you dare, and accelerate out. Any sort of braking or loss of drive during the turn will upset the balance of the car. Be on the power round the corner then accelerate out. Heel and toe helps you get it all done later and before the corner while making life easier on the synchros.

Maybe not a proffesionals vie on it, but im no proffesional

Toe'n'Heeling stops the arse end breaking away, same applies with front wheel drive.
Its something I haven't mastered yet.

I think the rally boys do more left foot braking than toe 'n' heel.

I agree with Carl, doubling the clutch is pointless with modern cars, unless the syncro's are fooked.

Edited by Jason G on 10th Oct, 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_declutch

Toe 'n' Heel you are already matching engine/transmission speeds without the hassle & delay of doubling the clutch.

Edit.....If your worried about transmission abuse........slow down & adhere to the speed limits! lol

Edited by Jason G on 10th Oct, 2008.

hows that work?

just forgot but its popped back to me, my bigger picture plan is a few trackdays/hillclimb (maybe) autotesting (maybe) next year when mini is ready proporly, whatching a few ppl from here & others, specially the mini sevdens at castle coobme was inspiring! to be honest i loved it & want to be on the track, i nearly went to ask if i could go out in fathers suzuki super carry with its full fat (hehehe) 1.3 efi lol

i uderstand the lines you should take von track but its the technique that gets the seconds per lap down & helps ya car last!
i can control lift off oversteer in the mini (well enough that some chaps coming out of work video'd me on their mobiles) i was just having a pay at low speed on a dmp road, nobody else around to collide with but i;m no tom fenton or john flannigan

SKYLINES ARE LIKE CLITS, EVERY FLANGE SEEMS TO HAVE ONE: see this sticker on my silvia

the Search-section on this forum is blummin superb & simple to use, unlike some other forums, without the search-section & the help of this bunch of chaps on here i'll never be able to !!!Start the day with a 998cc turbo!!! :) i'm getting closer though!

Tom Fenton says: I have it all, make me an offer

By changing down gear while braking, applying the throttle raises the revs just before the gear is engaged. Matching those revs to the revs required by the lower gear is the key. It even says that with the DVD when applying for a MSA licence!

Yes, but if you do not double de clutch, you are having the synchros do all the work of speeding up the mass of the friction plate and gear train, and you know the A series box is not the best when it comes to down shifting. Try it and see

Again I stess, im no expert, but it works for me, coming from the rally side of things, rather than circuit racing

Edited by Sprocket on 10th Oct, 2008.

i'mglad i brought this up cause well....its interesting to me to read about

SKYLINES ARE LIKE CLITS, EVERY FLANGE SEEMS TO HAVE ONE: see this sticker on my silvia

the Search-section on this forum is blummin superb & simple to use, unlike some other forums, without the search-section & the help of this bunch of chaps on here i'll never be able to !!!Start the day with a 998cc turbo!!! :) i'm getting closer though!

Tom Fenton says: I have it all, make me an offer

Heres a good example of the synchros doing there job with a 'a series'........
drive it and change down a gear without using the clutch. You put it neutral, blip the throttle to match the revs, then it will let you go into gear.

Edit...my point is, proves you don't actually need a clutch.
But, will admit it will reduce the life of the box.

Edited by Jason G on 10th Oct, 2008.

i fear for your synchro hubs

Yes it works, but can you match engine sped with transmission speed every time you shift down?

We are not talking dog box, as that is what you describe??

..

Edited by Sprocket on 10th Oct, 2008.

Never driven a car with a dog box. Not entirely sure how they work in all honesty. :(

Edit...only know syncro boxes you can....good old clutch cable snapped, so had to learn quickly to get home! lol

Edit 2....Good topic, time for some more lager.

Edited by Jason G on 10th Oct, 2008.

Thats the art...and its hard to get it spot on.
I haven't got the complete knack of it yet......

On 10th Oct, 2008 Sprocket said:
i fear for your synchro hubs

Yes it works, but can you match engine sped with transmission speed every time you shift down?

We are not talking dog box, as that is what you describe??

Edited by Jason G on 11th Oct, 2008.

this i agree with, also from rally background.

On 10th Oct, 2008 Sprocket said:
Yes, but if you do not double de clutch, you are having the synchros do all the work of speeding up the mass of the friction plate and gear train, and you know the A series box is not the best when it comes to down shifting. Try it and see

Again I stess, im no expert, but it works for me, coming from the rally side of things, rather than circuit racing

If you are rallying or circuit racing double declutching is wasting time, whether or not you also heel and toe.Modern(and I include Minis)synchro will do the rest, albeit with a bit more stress and wear in the Mini.If you are worrying about the wear when you are racing your mind is not on the job in hand.

IMHO, unless you have a fucked gearbox or insist on driving like a twat everywhere, you should never need to do this on the road. Racing is different obviously...

I knew a guy who wanted to get better at 'fast road' driving and had heard of rally boys left foot braking... one wet roundabout later he spun his car and wrote it off.

If your not sure what you are doing, don't practice it on the road... you'll feel like a prize prick if it goes wrong.