Cam-aware siamese code, now with full sequential staged injection
Turbo Mini Forums

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Thanks Paul,

Just arrived (to both email addresses together !!!)

I think this just shows my lack of familiarity with some of the things you and Jean have been working on for much, much longer than me......

Jean, I understand your logic now, obviously I was just trying to jump ahead a few stages and not considering people might do the intermediate stages first......

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

One for Jean (again I'm afraid....)

First my apologies - I have thoroughly re-read the whole thread and found the answers to both my problems yesterday were already covered by what you had said earlier - I just hadn't understood it properly at the time......

Anyway, the question.....

Has the lack of flash on the CPU required you to disable or remove any of the other "Extra" features ???

You have already said that the two fuel tables are now being used for inner and outer, and you've reduced the size of the ignition table, so presumably the "switch VE or Ign table" option has gone ???

Has anything else gone or been changed.

The reason I ask is I want to do all the re-wiring of the MS board properly in one go which means choosing pin assignments now.

One that I definately am considering is boost control - and you mentioned in a seperate thread that it was worth considering - and I appear to still have the choice of PM2 or PA0.

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I haven't reduced the ignition table. It's the new injection timing tables that are 6x6 as opposed to the ignition timing tables which are 12x12.

What I have removed is the EAE lag compensation which should not be needed with timed injection and rotary engine ignition support which should not affect anyone here. I also disabled all the wheel modes except for the even wheels (m-n type) and the 3 Rover types. But I can put back any mode if I disable another one.

So effectively, there is nothing removed in terms of extra features. You can use them all with the same constraints as the regular extra code in terms of the pins used.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Excellent Jean....

I'll rewire it neatly on Monday - except it's impossible to do as neatly as I would like with the holes for the 4 spare connector pins being right under the MAP sensor......

And it will all change again when your P&H board arrives anyway.....

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Well, I'm impressed Jean.....

My P&H bits (and the JimStim board) arrived this morning.

I was expecting a few weeks from what the Canada Post website said. I haven't even ordered the extra bits I need for the JimStim yet as I assumed it was going to be a long time before I saw it.

I'm actually seriously thinking about building a second MS specifically for the P&H 4 driver setup rather than rewiring my current one yet again and wasting a lot of the parts currently installed, so one final question....

Can all the existing injector circuitry (resistors, diodes, TO-220s, etc) remain in place and working - giving the option of "standard" two driver outputs as well as the four driver output through the P&H board - or do they have to be physically disconnected from the CPU outputs. Obviously I don't need the space released on the heatsink as I'm using your P&H board, but I'm not sure whether to try and make the one unit compatible with both "two driver" siamese code (which I will use for all the testing on N/A) and the staged version, or to keep the two versions physically seperate.

I was looking at the prices of partial (MS2) kits this morning but the problem is that £sterling has fallen really badly compared to $US since I bought the first complete kit.....

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I'm surprised. It's about 1 week faster than what I expected. The funny thing is that it's faster sending things to the UK than to the US.

You can keep both injector drivers in parallel. The board I'm using on the bench actually has both. I have the standard V3 board and drivers and I just soldered wires to the MS2 card pins on top. And I see the output of both on the JimStim (6 LEDs) and there's no problem.

I don't recommend soldering wires directly to the MS2 card in a permanent install as it may not be the most reliable way. Use the 2 unused clock circuit pads (both sides of R23) and R32 and R36.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

I've looked at this again....

As you say it's OK to have both sets of circuitry in parallel, I decided to order a slightly taller case as I have already an additional heatsink higher up (for the additional ignitor(s) and high current transistors for some of the "Extra" features) so wanted some extra room for the P&H board.

But all the cases on the market over here are for 100mm boards (typically a 100 x 160 "Euroboard") and guess what.... the MS board is imperial at 4" (101.6mm) so won't fit any UK/EU case.......

So I went back to my first thought of building a second one specifically for the 4 drivers with the P&H board and, if I've understood your modification correctly, after going through the schematics, there is a significant number of parts no longer required.

I've made my own list - I won't post it just yet as it's probably wrong... - but it looks like most of the heatsink is freed up ???

Presumably explaining your earlier comment that there will be plenty of room for four driver chips for those using high z injectors who don't need the P&H board.

What I'm really saying is it now looks more sensible (for me) to build a second one, just by purchasing the bare mainboard and daughterboard/CPU and buying the remaining components direct over here. Obviously I now have the P&H board and components anyway.

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

As you say, most of the heat sink is taken up by injector driver components so if you use the p&h board the heat sink is almost empty. I have a list on my web site of the components no longer needed but this is for the regular code. For the sequential code, you want to remove U4, R14, R17 in addition.

You could trim the board to make it fit in a 100mm wide case since it's just 1.6 mm more but the problem would be the 160mm which would make it awkward to use the connectors on both sides.

What might be of use is the new board I have which has 4 ignition drivers and a DB15 connector. If you don't need the 4 drivers (I assume you're doing wasted spark), you could use 2 of the drivers for extra features instead. Have a look here.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Well at least I had U4, R14, R17 on my list.....

I hadn't spotted the list (schematic) on your website for what to remove until I searched just now - they are shown as U7, R30, R31 there - but I assume that's just a difference between MS1 and MS2.

That (very) new board does look interesting but, if I keep going at this rate, there will be very little left on the V3.0 mainboard apart from the socket up to the MS2 daughterboard.....

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Just to clarify the mods to the MS2 daughterboard.

Have I identified them correctly:

Edited by Paul S on 3rd Mar, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Because I've been concentrating on getting the code working, I've not been following this thread closely and have gone and ordered a full kit from DIYAutotune at huge expense and expect to get hammered for VAT and handling fees

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Paul,

You've identified them correctly. I should actually use this picture as it's much clearer without hiding any details.

And you don't "need" the new board to do 4 injectors and coils on plug but this makes it a much neater installation and gives you an additional connector for all those. One very nice aspect is that it completely isolates the high current devices from the main board.

Also note that the injector drivers on that board are for high impedance injectors which is what you want to use, I think. For low impedance injectors, the board can still be used but in conjunction with the p&h board.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Thanks Jean.

Yes, I'm sticking with the high impedance injectors. I'm currently running some Siemens Deka injectors off a Volvo T4?. 375 cc/min and not that expensive.

Not sure why anyone would want to use low Z injectors.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Rod,

i have heard of supply issues from glens garage, it was a while back and may be sorted now but thought i'd mention it anyway.

Rod,

i have heard of supply issues from glens garage, it was a while back and may be sorted now but thought i'd mention it anyway.

Paul,

If you want to go over 200HP, you're going to need injectors bigger than 375cc/min. You actually need over 1000cc/min per intake port (depending on BSCF and duty cycle).

Most of the bigger injectors are still low impedance. And you will want something not too large as the primary injector to have the best low load behaviour (even though your testing seem to contradict this).

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I ordered mine from DIYAutotune on Thursday 26th Feb.

It is now with UK customs so no stock issues there.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I'm just using the 375 cc/min injectors on the 998 turbo. Eventually use a total of four. I'll see if it will idle on all four before I mod the board for staged.

On the 1293 Turbo I shall probably use four of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIEMENS-DEKA-60-FUEL...p3286.m63.l1177

That price is for six, so very good value for new injectors.

They should be good for 200+ hp.

There is also the larger version if that is not enough.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIEMENS-DEKA-83LB-FU...p3286.m63.l1177

Edited by Paul S on 4th Mar, 2009.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

If you don't have to use staged injection then don't and save the hassle of the modifications. But if you do need it, then you might as well make the best use of it and chose one small and one big injector to have the best of both worlds (on the 1293 Turbo).

And these high-Z injectors look like fine choices. But for people who do have low-Z injectors or can get them cheaper, the p&h board might still be a cost effective solution and will give very good results. And the board makes using low-Z injectors as easy as using high-Z ones because you don't need to tune any PWM parameters.

Jean

Edited by jbelanger on 4th Mar, 2009.

http://www.jbperf.com/