dizzyless ignition
Turbo Mini Forums

Hello all,

I was wondering if someone could do one of three things for me, or all three if you want. Firstly, I'm looking to go with megasquirt and just use it for dizzyless ignition right now, no injection. I just am tired of messing with the dizzy, always replacing points and what not... What all do I need, and what the easiest way to install it? I would need a crank trigger and sensor, but to get rid of the dizzy, would I need a cam sensor? Also, rather than use edis or some such, would it be possible to use MSD ignition parts and wire them in the same to get rid of the dizzy?
Second and third thing you guys could do is either call me an idiot, which some days I feel like after reading a few hundred posts on this site... And thirdly tell me to keep reading rather than post a question...
Thanks all!

-James

For ignition only, no cam sensor is required, just the crank pulley mounted 36/1 trigger wheel and sensor.

The cam sensor isn't even needed for basic "single point" fuel injection, it is only needed for the special "siamese code".

I'm not sure what you mean by MSD parts but you can use Megasquirt without an EDIS unit. Megasquirt can fire a standard Ford coilpack direct or even individual coils (COP or CNP). However, to fire the coilpack or single coils direct, it has to be built slightly differently and use the "Extra" code. The differences are nothing complicated, are well documented, and used by many people (although mostly on other makes of car).

How to physically do it..... decide how you are going to install the 36/1 trigger, there are several ways including machining the slots direct in the pulley.
Buy the Megasquirt, either as a kit with the extra components needed for direct fire, or get one of the (very few) respected suppliers in the UK to build you one to the correct spec.
Then spend hours wiring it all into the car.......

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Rod, can you please point me in the direction of the "well documented" details ?.

All the extra features are in the MS2-Extra manual (this assumes you would be using MS2 as its better than MS1 and is needed anyway if you were ever to want to use the siamese code).

This link should take you straight to the correct page of the manual

http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_...tion.htm#2coils

If not, here's the complete manual

http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/

EDIT - you don't have to do the physical installation as per the manual, just get the wiring right - for example I kept the original chip to keep a single coil option as well, and added the additional parts I needed (inc. other options too) on a seperate heatsink and ran the coilpack wiring out on a seperate connector



EDIT 2 - I should add that the more advanced stuff - additional boards for multiple coils/injectors or Peak and hold boards for multiple low z injectors - which do away with half the components on the standard MS board are all on Jean's website here

http://www.jbperf.com/

Jean is the star who has written the additional Extra code for sequential and siamese injection.

Edited by Rod S on 13th Jul, 2009.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

That should keep me quiet for a bit !!

Okay, one more question. Is it possible to use the megasquirt 36-1 crank trigger? Just maching the pulley and bolt to accept it? And msd is uprated igition parts. You can have a coil pack, or I think they sell COP's as well, but I could be wrong.

oh, sorry one more. For dizzyless ignition, would I leave the dizzy, or could I remove the whole thing?

You can use anyone's 36/1 wheel (or machine the pulley) so long as you can fit a suitable sensor (pickup) to read it.

All the Megasquirt wants is the VR input signal from a 36/1 wheel and sensor.

If MSD is just "bling" standard parts, why bother - the standard Ford Coilpack works fine if you set the dwell/charge etc up right in Megasquirt.

As per the dizzy itself, you can leave it doing nothing - some people do when they are initially nervous about their mapped system so want to be able to quickly revert to a dizzy - but if you remove it, it frees up a lot of room.

BUT - if you do remove it, you must take the drive shaft out as well or it will eventually fall into the gearbox.

You also obviously need a blanking plug for the hole.

Or, if you are considering fuel injection in the future, you could use the dizzy drive for the phase sensor as Paul and I have done.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Thanks a lot for your replies. If I remove it I can always put it back in later. Do you need the whole dizzy for the phase sensor, or just the drive spindle?

-James

Have a look at the various threads by Paul S and me, we both did it different ways but both based on the bottom half of the dizzys.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Alright, awesome. Thanks for your help, I'll be on here a lot, as I still need to finish reading the threads. I'm 3/4 the way through the EFI section. If I have any more questions yout two seem to be the major guru's 'round here.

-James

Okay. I have another question. When I wire up my MSII where do I get power supply from? Also, I was reading some of the stuff, I believe off the megasquirt manual, and it says that for coil power I need to take it off the fuel pump relay 12 volt power. I have no fuel pump relay. I'm still working on the mechanical pump, as I don't have enough power to warrant a better one. I'm thinking of using AEM's short pencil coil(COP design). Any comments or suggestions?

-James

Why are you so against the std Ford coilpack? Available for very little money even brand new, and does the job fine on 200bhp+ turbo cars. I personally wouldn't waste my money on anything fancy in the coil dept, its not needed.

The best way to power it is as per the manual, or at least based on the recommended circuit in the manual.

You can either buy Megasquirt's own relay kit or just wire up your own relays. I wired my own up, there's a picture somewhere on one of my threads. The fuel pump relay is part of the recommended wiring, obviously for an injection fuel pump, but the reason they suggest taking the coilpack feed from there is
(a) its several amps less passing through your basic ignition switch, and
(b) the fuel pump relay is controlled by the Megasquirt so that, apart from an initial pulse to prime the system, it is only energised when the engine is cranking or running. This is obviously a safety feature for high pressure fuel but it's also quite a good idea (not essential, but a good idea) to only power the coilpack when it's needed.

In your case, I would include a fuel pump relay in your wiring even though you don't have the pump yet. One less thing to add later.

As for COPs, I'm with Tom - it's just not necissary, not at this stage of what you are doing anyway.

Paul is (or certainly was) intending to use CNPs in the near future - search for the thread - but I think it is overkill.

Also, you need to do more modifications to the Megasquirt to drive 4 coils, either additional chips and wiring as per the Extra manual, or fit Jean's 4 channel driver board.
And it ties up another two processor ports that you might (later) want for something else.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I only need the coil pack then? Just run the BIP373 on the board, I believe, as that replaced the last chip they were using for that stuff? So, would you recommend then installing a electronic fuel pump, so that I can use the 12 volt feed? It woudln't be too hard to wire up.

-James

Coilpack will be fine as stated but you need two ignition driver chips (igniters) installed as per the Extra manual to avoid needing the EDIS module.

The standard build MS has only one VB921 (or whatever the current replacement is) installed, so you need to modify it to have two chips as per the Extra manual - a common modification.

I've actually used the Fairchild ISL9V5036 chips, these were the best at the time I built it.

I wouldn't bother with an electronic fuel pump if your engine doesn't need it - just install the fuel pump relay and let it feed the coilpack only for the time being. If you go injection later, it will already be there to power the high pressure pump.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Alright. Sounds great. 2 BIP373's and coil wired to the fuel pump relay. Thanks! As soon as I get s little positive cash flow I should be on my way...