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Home > MS Code Discussions > Any rolling road operaters who understand the MS code

Jimster
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9349 Posts
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455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales

I have a friend who is very interested in trying the MS code on a race car. As the car is not road legal it will need to be setup a rolling road.

Are there any rolling road operaters who have the knowledge and are will to have a go at mapping one of these?

How much effort is required in mapping with this new code. Is it something that could be done and dusted in a day?

Can the ecu be purchased ready assembled with the extra board and ignition drivers on board?

Is this too earlier in the development for this??

We have an engine (1120cc) with a pair of TB's, cam phase sensor, crank sensor, TPS, air and coolent temps sensors. Is there anything else we need apart from a pair of wide bands?

Cheers

Jimbo

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials


Jimster
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9349 Posts
Member #: 58
455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales

I forgot to add, currently the inlet manifold is setup with 2 injectors per port. The engine was previoulsy run with efi, but as a big bang, with diaspointing results

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials


sturgeo

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Northants

Its pretty much the same as mapping a conventional engine but you have an additional table for injection timing.
If the engine isn't FI then you should be able to get it running as well as a carb within a day easily in terms of afrs.


Paul S

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8565 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

I think that Sturgeo and i are the only people to have set it up in the UK.

We have the same problem with the Miglia, in terms that we will not be able to set it up on the road.

I suggest that it would be possible on a track to get the fueling close within a few hours. Ignition timing would best be done on a rolling road, but anyone should be able to do that.

We will be trailering to one of the Peak Performance days at the Pod to do ours.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


sturgeo

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Northants

Oh and as you say the car isnt road legal, we plan on mapping the mig using the peak performance days on and off the strip at the pod to get a decent base map and then fine tune it on a RR.

edit: he beat me to that bit :)

Edited by sturgeo on 28th Jan, 2010.


Jimster
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9349 Posts
Member #: 58
455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales

maybe I should have a play with the software and have a play. Where is the best place to get the latest copy of the software needed.

Are there any working (ish) maps out there so I can have a look and try to work out if I can fumble my way around?

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials


Jimster
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9349 Posts
Member #: 58
455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales




On 28th Jan, 2010 Paul S said:
I think that Sturgeo and i are the only people to have set it up in the UK.

We have the same problem with the Miglia, in terms that we will not be able to set it up on the road.

I suggest that it would be possible on a track to get the fueling close within a few hours. Ignition timing would best be done on a rolling road, but anyone should be able to do that.

We will be trailering to one of the Peak Performance days at the Pod to do ours.


The car is an autograss car, so mapping on the track is not really an option, is really has to be done on the rollers only.

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials


Paul S

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8565 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

The software comes from the MSExtra forum.

The latest version is 3.0.3r of the MS2/Extra.

I can lend you an .msq file to look at. You will need Tuner Studio to view the setup.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


sturgeo

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Northants

On 28th Jan, 2010 Jimster said:

The car is an autograss car, so mapping on the track is not really an option, is really has to be done on the rollers only.


know anyone with a field? *happy*

Tunerstudio is what you'll need for mapping, the father will know where the relevant config files etc are.

edit: he beat me to it again, must be this vodka!

Edited by sturgeo on 28th Jan, 2010.


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland


On 28th Jan, 2010 Jimster said:
We have an engine (1120cc) with a pair of TB's, cam phase sensor, crank sensor, TPS, air and coolent temps sensors. Is there anything else we need apart from a pair of wide bands?


It sounds like the engine has all the correct sensors for use with the MS.

One thing that you will need to establish is if the cam phase sensor is a VR or Hall/Opto sensor as this will require different circuitry.

You will need a couple of wideband O2 sensors with a 0-5v output.

The only other thing is that you may need some form of Inlet Air Control Valve to ease starting.

I think that my base setup from before we added the turbo would be a good starting point.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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Rural Suffolk

Covering that point,

On 28th Jan, 2010 Jimster said:
Can the ecu be purchased ready assembled with the extra board and ignition drivers on board?

... it depend on what specification you want

I "think" the most you can get ready built is with two standard ignition chips inside (ie, for a coilpack) but I don't think anyone builds them with changes inside for Hall or Opto cam input that is needed for the siamese code. Not a complicated change but not "standard".

Also if you want 4 channel (staged) injection - you said two injectors per port or were you intending just to wire them in parallel? - then definately not as it requires one of Jean's additional boards, which also differ between high z and low z injectors.

TBH though, building one yourself is not difficult, especially if you use Jean's boards for the outputs, half the "standard" components get thrown away.....

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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8565 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

I would expect that on a 1152cc NA motor, the standard injectors drivers would suffice. That's what I'm using at 112hp.

My board is standard except that I've added the cam sensor and additional O2 sensor circuits.

EDIT: Acksherley, you can buy a built unit with all the features you need from here:

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MS_All_products.htm#wasted4

Edited by Paul S on 29th Jan, 2010.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk




On 29th Jan, 2010 Paul S said:

EDIT: Acksherley, you can buy a built unit with all the features you need from here:

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/MS_All_products.htm#wasted4


That seems new, I don't remember if from his previous web pages....

Still quite pricey compared to the cost of self-build :)

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


sturgeo

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Northants

On 28th Jan, 2010 Jimster said:
Can the ecu be purchased ready assembled with the extra board and ignition drivers on board?


I might be able to do a fully built and tested megasquirt with everything you need including the map we use as a starting point.
I'll have to see how much it'll cost


jbelanger

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Montreal, Canada

If you do decide to go for a fully built MS, Phil at extraefi.co.uk is certainly a good choice. He's one of the original MS1/Extra authors (not MS2/Extra though) and also responsible for a big part of the extra documentation (both MS1 and MS2). So he's a knowledgeable, reliable and respected member of the MS community.

Of course, if you can get an alternative from one of the members here that could be even better because they'll know more about the specifics of what you want to do.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/


Jimster
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455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales

I'm thinking of doing this again, but this time it's on my own engine. It's 1120cc, n/a but often see's RPM around 10500, engine is short stroke 74mm stoke with 12g940 head. I have access to set this up on a dyno, but once it's fitted into the car it can't go wrong. The motor is far more expensive to build than my twin cam engine, so I can't afford for it to go pete tong.

Do the high RPM cause problems?

Do you think I'll see much drivable, power gains over a webber 45?

Edited by Jimster on 20th Aug, 2010.

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials


gr4h4m

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Chester

holy smoke 10500 and more than our twin cam setup bloody hell..

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!


jbelanger

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Montreal, Canada

MS has been run on motorcycle engines that run well over 12000 RPM so 10500 is not an issue.

I would think that once tuned correctly, you'll have a much more drivable engine with a more consistent behaviour. And the drivability will be even better if you go with a fully sequential injection setup.

But you will likely not gain power over a well tuned webber setup. You'll only gain power if the carb venturis cause enough restriction to throttle the engine.

So for a drag-only setup it might not be worth it. But for a street engine or road racing, I think you'd see a noticeable improvement.

One thing is that you'll need to do your homework on wiring and grounds and plan for it before you start the conversion. If you have noise issues or tach signal issues that's where things can go wrong.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland

The main issue with the high revs is the very small window in which you need to inject fuel into the outer cylinders.

You may need some large injectors which may then cause problems at idle. The workaround is to use two sets of injectors with staging as we are doing on the Miglia.

Do you know what sort of hp you are expecting at 10500rpm? I can then do some calcs.

If you have a well designed inlet manifold with a couple of Jenveys, then, in all probability, you will make a bit more power thean the Weber because you should have better breathing.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


jbelanger

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Montreal, Canada

On 21st Aug, 2010 Paul S said:
The main issue with the high revs is the very small window in which you need to inject fuel into the outer cylinders.

You may need some large injectors which may then cause problems at idle. The workaround is to use two sets of injectors with staging as we are doing on the Miglia.

Of course, Paul is correct. For some strange reason I was not thinking about the siamese mode (I'm on too many forums).

And to add to what Paul mentions, as RPM increases and the injection window gets smaller, the opening time gets to be a larger proportion of the time available. If you're using a single squirt (hybrid mode) then it's not that big of an issue but in the two-squirt mode, you'll need to push back the inner cylinder timing so you don't have overlap and the injector has sufficient time for closing and opening between squirts.

So the high RPM and the resulting shorter injection window is the reason why a NA engine may need to have a 4 injector setup even if the power output is not as high as a turbo engine.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/


Jimster
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9349 Posts
Member #: 58
455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales

I've just bought the engine, but not collected it yet, it's about 110 bhp I think, I'm hoping to get some Dyno printouts to show you. The engine is for autograss racing

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland

Well, to inject enough fuel for 110hp in under 3mSec, you will need around 1500 cc/min per port.

That is based on my 998Ti using 1000 cc/min per port for 120hp at 6000 rpm and 5 mSec.

Definately need staged injection. Quite doable but unproven at this present time.

I am concerned that it will have a radical cam and all sorts of charge robbing going on, but we have the technology.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


robert

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uranus

my nonsense thought was to have an injector that will run a low enough flow for tickover in each port ..

then put in a big injector upstream ,and, when the first inj runs out of flow, just switch it on 100% duty .so its a constant flow of atomised fuel ...

then use the adjustment on the original injector to address charge robbing . .

this would simplifiy things ,and allow the fuel from the constant flow inj to drop the inlet temps more ,contracting the charge and making more power .

robert

Edited by robert on 23rd Aug, 2010.

Bicester scramble ,Medusa enjoyed the trip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-7I7-nA19U


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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On 23rd Aug, 2010 robert said:
my nonsense thought was to have an injector that will run a low enough flow for tickover in each port ..

then put in a big injector upstream ,and, when the first inj runs out of flow, just switch it on 100% duty .so its a constant flow of atomised fuel ...

then use the adjustment on the original injector to address charge robbing . .

this would simplifiy things ,and allow the fuel from the constant flow inj to drop the inlet temps more ,contracting the charge and making more power .

robert


I can see how that might work, but I don't think Jim has the time to develope it.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Jimster
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9349 Posts
Member #: 58
455bhp per ton
12 sec 1/4 mile road legal mini

Sunny Bridgend, South Wales

I'll find out what cam is in there.

going way OT I need to convert a dyno from analogue to digtial, I assume this is just a case of adding a load cell and a trigger wheel?? anyone know of any software I can use?

Team www.sheepspeed.com Racing

On 15th May, 2009 TurboDave said:

I think the welsh one has it right!


1st to provide running proof
of turbo twinkie in a car and first to
run a 1/4 in one!!

Is your data backed up?? directbackup.net one extra month free for all Turbo minis members, PM me for detials

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