Trackday N/A 1380
Turbo Mini Forums

Well, we've done normal N/A, low boost FI and have high boost FI in the pipeline so for my old daily its time for high power N/A. This'll obviously be fuel injected using megasquirt and the siamese code :)

Engine spec will be 1380 with fully worked bottom end, something similar to the MED clubman race cylinder head, 296 or higher duration scatter cam, circa 12-12.5:1 CR and all the other usual bits and pieces.

Fueling will be via a normal single weber DCOE inlet manifold with a Jenvey TBS45i. 2 1000 or 1200cc high impedance injectors (Bosch P/N: -1580561000/1580561200) which will hopefully provide us with enough fuel at high rpm's and also give a satisfactory idle. If it doesnt then we can go to staged injection and possibly put the secondary injectors in the inlet runners .

Ditch the EDIS and run the coilpack directly, use a idle valve instead of stepper motor to keep the nitrous outputs free and obviously have the cam signal input and dual widebands.

It's going to be interesting to see how tuning with the large overlap will be. I'd be surprised if you were able to use the single pulse with such a big cam.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

The idle will be interesting with large injectors and a wild cam.

I've got mine pretty good now on 2 1000cc (low z) injectors but it's still not quite as good as yours/Pauls 998Ti although the total injection capacity is pretty much the same. It makes me wonder if two smaller injectors in parallel (as per the 998Ti) regulate better at very low pulsewidths than one large one, although I can't make a direct comparison to yours because you are on the single pulse and I'm on two which inevitably are much shorter.

I've also got my IACV on closed loop control which makes quite a bit of difference for me - it is "active" most of the time when idling, only a few steps either way, but enough to make a difference. I don't know how responsive a standard PWM idle valve is compared to a stepper motor if you found you needed the closed loop control because of the cam.

What's the timescale for this ???

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Sounds like a lot of fun........

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Axel wont be happy! You'll be putting his rebuild to the back of the queue!

Also you'll have to help finish mine if you want the trailer

You boys have too many projects. lol

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

It was your idea!

On 2nd Sep, 2010 Paul S said:
Sounds like a lot of fun........

The timescale is relatively long as i don't have the funds at the moment and building the engine and box by itself is going to be pretty costly and hopefully by then MS3 Extra will have the siamese code, that'll then allow me to use the normal stepper motor for idle.

Idle will be interesting with a wild cam but then again it would be with a weber anyway...

Other than the cam sensor i want to keep it to "off the shelf" parts as much as possible so fuel injecting the a series appeals to more people who don't have the confidence, skills or knowledge in regards to designing their own inlet manifold successfully (and also so the old man doesn't have as much work to do) or becuase it seems such a daunting task

Edited by sturgeo on 2nd Sep, 2010.

Keep us informed on the FI. Could be interesting

I seriously doubt it!

Idiotic question : am I right thinking the added value of FI on such a setup is only in fuel economy and smoother running ?

Rusty by nature

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

http://www.jbperf.com/

Hi Jean, as this is going to be N/A i wouldn't mind giving nitrous a go further down the line and possibly control it via the megasquirt which as you know means using the stepper motor outs :(

Not sure if it would be best to use a dry system and inject the extra fuel using the existing injectors (only really viable on the 1200cc jobbies) or use a wet system but then there is no control over what goes where would be interesting to see what it does to the individual afr's though.

Sorry, i meant MS3X.

On 3rd Sep, 2010 sturgeo said:
Hi Jean, as this is going to be N/A i wouldn't mind giving nitrous a go further down the line and possibly control it via the megasquirt which as you know means using the stepper motor outs :(

Not sure if it would be best to use a dry system and inject the extra fuel using the existing injectors (only really viable on the 1200cc jobbies) or use a wet system but then there is no control over what goes where would be interesting to see what it does to the individual afr's though.

Sorry, i meant MS3X.

http://www.jbperf.com/

Sorry Jean, we've been looking at the ms2 options table and hadn't realised that you could change it from using JS0 & JS2 to FIdle & D15 as displayed in tunerstudio.

Using FIdle on its own will be fine as i wont be using it if i can use the stepper motor outs.

I too have been going by what's on the printed options tables in the MS-Extra manual so I too hadn't realised there are actually more options than printed in that table.

As an aside (for Jean) is there any "hidden" documentation about exactly what can be done with the CAN bus - again, detailed information seems hard to find.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The text here mentions the other options for nitrous. You're both correct that this table is not complete and should be updated.

There is some documentation here for what is available (down the page) but it is somewhat outdated. There is also what you can find when using TunerStudio. Everything that mentions a remote port for an option means that it can use a port from a device over the CAN bus.

I'll have to make a table of what's available but all the non-realtime features should be available over CAN. That includes: PWM idle and boost control (both of which use hardware timers so can use higher frequencies without losing precision), up to 8 digital output ports (similar to the spare port settings), baro sensor for baro correction, both main and second O2 sensors, table switching, launch control, nitrous control (inputs and outputs), flex fuel sensor, knock sensor input (requires an additional conditioner).

Jean

Edited by jbelanger on 4th Sep, 2010.

http://www.jbperf.com/

Rusty by nature

Right, there are at least two reasons that EFi will give more power.

Firstly, twin 40mm throttle bodies will flow better than any Weber/SU because of the lack of venturis/dashpots. Hence the engine will get more air.

Secondly, the EFi can be set to ensure that all cylinders get the correct amount of fuel for maximum power. My tests with dual widebands on an SU back in December 2007 show that mixture distribution was very poor.



Just because a single wideband says that the AFR is optimised does not mean that each cylinder is getting the best chance to make power.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

And as Paul has mentioned before, this unequal fuel distribution also means you have to compromise on the ignition timing. The advance is limited by the lean cylinder tendency to detonate so you either set the advance lower than what will yield maximum power or run the chance of a getting a holed piston.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Re. the CANbus and what it can do, I've read up about the I/O extender on Jean's own site from the link Jean provided above, and read a lot more information abot it on his forum too.

It looks like a very worthwhile addition to an MS-2 that has already got most (if not all) of it's spare ports used.

So I've registered over there to try and keep all the detailed questions/answers in one place.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

What interests me is that Jean has a SD card logger planned.

Our biggest problem on the Miglia Turbo, apart from getting time to work on it, is the lack of ports and the need for datalogging.

The traction control and dual widebands cannot be accomodated on the standard MS2 board, so we have been looking for a datalogger that can take the MS2 data stream and the extra wideband signal.

The I/O Extender and Jean's logger could be a solution.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

You've obviously been reading up on it too :)

I'm still hopefull I can get the TechEdge software to do my datalogging, like I had it set up last year when we were using Megatune rather than TS or MTx but, if not, the above is probably the optimum solution.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I would be very suprized if you see any realy over all power increce on this engine with FI over a big weber,
What I would expect to see is a big increce in mig range torque and botom end drivability.

the main reason you will see very little power increce is because most big cam a series with a weber run AFR's of mid 12's my own testing on single cylinder 500cc motor bikes with similar cams, seen no real increce or loss of power between an AFR of 11.5:1 and 13.2:11 about 8% over all. That is with a difference of 1.7 in AFR's. Looking at your tests with an SU the difference is no more than that at any point leading me to bleve that very little in the way of power will be gained from geting the AFR the same.

As far as running 40mm throttle bodies meaning you will get more air flow I would be intrested to see what difference that makes I think Port vlocity will be a biger player tho.

Good look with it sounds like a good project