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Home > Help Needed / General Tech Chat > Timing Figures for MD274SP Cam

Paul S

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Does anyone have the actual timing figures for the MD274SP?

Kent do not publish the individual inner and outer cylinder figures on the website.

Just need to consider the impact on boost of having a low LSA on the inner cylinders.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


BENROSS

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Resident Cylinder Head Modifier

Mitsi Evo 7, 911, Cossie. & all the chavs ...... won no problem

here you go paul.
power band 1500 to 6500

cam lift inlet 0.285" ex 0.281"
vlave lift inlet 0.348" ex 0.343"
duration inlet 248 ex 274 deg
timing figures inlet 16/52 ex 71/29
timed in at 108
valve clearence 0.016"






Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland


On 19th Sep, 2010 BENROSS said:
here you go paul.
power band 1500 to 6500

cam lift inlet 0.285" ex 0.281"
vlave lift inlet 0.348" ex 0.343"
duration inlet 248 ex 274 deg
timing figures inlet 16/52 ex 71/29
timed in at 108
valve clearence 0.016"


Thanks Steve, but that is the data from the Kent website.

As well as being incorrect, it does not distinguish between the inner and outer cylinders.

You can't have an exhaust duration of 274 degrees and timing of 71/29 !

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


fab

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So then you just have to substract these numbers to know the scattering, ie 4° inlets 6 exhaust degrees.§.. 108 outers 112 inners


Paul S

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On 19th Sep, 2010 fab said:
So then you just have to substract these numbers to know the scattering, ie 4° inlets 6 exhaust degrees.§.. 108 outers 112 inners


I can see that on the figure quoted you get 108 and 111 degrees LCAs, but not how you have conclude on 4/6 degrees scatter.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


robert

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uranus

paul,why have you decided the inners have a different lsa?

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


Paul S

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On 19th Sep, 2010 robert said:
paul,why have you decided the inners have a different lsa?


The only figures that I have for SP cams is in an early edition of the yellow bible and they all have different LCAs and LSAs for the inner and outer cylinders.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Sprocket

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If I get a chance, I'll set up a test block and measure mine.

Whats the best way to measure cams and plot the data?

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


fab

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the actual timing is advertissed timing less duration :
timing 71+29+180=280° less 274= 6° scattering so exhaust is 71/23, 65/29. same rule for inlets
use this with the in timing you'll find the lsa for in and outers.


16/56= 252°, -248 : 16/52 12/56 so first (outer) cylinder timing:

16/52 in ; 71/23 ex (ie 108lca ;114 lce) 111° lsa

2( inners) cylinder:

12/56 in ; 65/29 ex (ie 112lca;108 lce) 110° lsa.

hope this is clear, (I haven't already took my coffee


On 19th Sep, 2010 Paul S said:

On 19th Sep, 2010 fab said:
So then you just have to substract these numbers to know the scattering, ie 4° inlets 6 exhaust degrees.§.. 108 outers 112 inners


I can see that on the figure quoted you get 108 and 111 degrees LCAs, but not how you have conclude on 4/6 degrees scatter.


Paul S

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That's interesting Fab.

But they quote the inlet timing as 16/52, not 16/56.

Your figure are most likely correct. I hope they are as that spec would be fine for my application.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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On 19th Sep, 2010 Sprocket said:
If I get a chance, I'll set up a test block and measure mine.

Whats the best way to measure cams and plot the data?


That may be the only definitive way to get the actual data.

I would do it with the usual cam setup stuff, follower pushrod, degree wheel, pointer and DTI.

Just measure lift on the inlet and exhaust lobes of both 1 & 2 every 10 degrees or so. Try and find the centre of full lift on no. 1 inlet to zero in the data. Plot with Excel.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


fab

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Yes they quote 16/52 for the sp version, why I used these numbers for inlet number one, the std version (non sp) is 12/56, that's why I used these numbers for inner events as for the exhaust side... 16/56 spread for inlet

On 20th Sep, 2010 Paul S said:
That's interesting Fab.

But they quote the inlet timing as 16/52, not 16/56.

Your figure are most likely correct. I hope they are as that spec would be fine for my application.


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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Testing out Fab's theory seems to give realistic figures.

I've analysed 4 cams from the yellow bible and the MD274SP.

I just wonder if the inner exhausts should have a bit more duration as this is something that is common with all the others.

EDIT: Got the figures wrong.

EDIT2: This sheet is superseded by the data I got from Kent. See later posts.


Attachments:

Edited by Paul S on 22nd Sep, 2010.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Sprocket

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would kent not have this data? would it be worth a phone call? comanies like kent cams are normally very helpful

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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On 21st Sep, 2010 Sprocket said:
would kent not have this data? would it be worth a phone call? comanies like kent cams are normally very helpful


I'll give them a try. It depends who you get on the end of the phone and if they even know the difference between a normal cam and a "scatter pattern" cam. They tend to just have numpties that will quote from the brochure, which we know is inaccurate.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


fab

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I would mail them, they will transfer it to the competent guy which will come back, hope so.


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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I rang Kent. The guy that answered knew what he was talking about but he was either unwilling or unable to divulge the data for the inner cylinders except that they are ground on a 106 degree LCA.

He confirmed that the data on the web is incorrect and that the timing for the outer cylinders is:

Inlet 16/52, Exhaust 65/29, 108 LCA.

He also said that he would not recommend it for a turbo application.

Then he offered to cut a special on a 112/110 LCA at the normal price *surprised*

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


John

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Interesting :)

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.


Brett

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112/110 LCA is that good or not :/

Yes i moved to the darkside *happy*

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Joe C

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depends what your TIP is.

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

https://joe1977.imgbb.com/



Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland


On 22nd Sep, 2010 Brett said:
112/110 LCA is that good or not :/


It's yummy *happy*

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


fab

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found this:
MD274SPM Sports Torque
16° 52° 71° 29° 19° 49° 71° 29° 1500/6500 248° 280° 108° 111° 110° 248° 280° 105° 111° 108° 4 7.23 7.13 SCATTER


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland


On 22nd Sep, 2010 fab said:
found this:
MD274SPM Sports Torque
16° 52° 71° 29° 19° 49° 71° 29° 1500/6500 248° 280° 108° 111° 110° 248° 280° 105° 111° 108° 4 7.23 7.13 SCATTER


Do you know the source of this? I googled "MD274SPM" and found the spreadsheet containing this data.

It's different from what Kent told me this morning.

Confusion reigns *Confused*

I'm tempted to get one ground on 112/110 LCA, but then that would be very close to the MD274 which is 112 LCA anyway. I know that the MD274 works very well *wink*, so is it worth the extra cost of the billet ground MD274SP for just a couple of degrees advance on the inner inlets?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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On 22nd Sep, 2010 Paul S said:
so is it worth the extra cost of the billet ground MD274SP for just a couple of degrees advance on the inner inlets?


I expect you are going to be the one who finds out :)

I watched some of those early Vizard videos Joe posted and he rates the "scatter" pattern but that was nearly 20 years ago in the videos. He also really didn't explain why.

However with current knowledge and turbos, I can see why a "scatter" pattern (why can't they just say different inner and outer timings, I hate the word "scatter" ???) would be another way forward.

With the siamese code we can vary the injection timings inner to outer, so why not optimise it with a cam that already has different inner/outer timings....

But I'm sure you are way ahead of me there. :)

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


robert

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uranus

and could some of that advance be to do with mixture control ,which is addressed by the siamese code anyway ..

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

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