Megajolt + JAW or Megasquirt 3?
Turbo Mini Forums

My question is can I use megasquirt for ignition mapping and AFR monitoring and logging without fuel injection or not? Cause original idea was megajolt then I was informed about JAW by Sam and I'm stuck in what to do. It's about £120 for megajolt now and just over £200 for JAW (just another wideband).
Any advice is much welcome :)

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

I'd say the cheapest way is MJLJ v4 and an AEM Wideband.

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

AEM wideband's aren't cheap either! still well over £100

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

whats JAW?

te AEMS are about £150

megasquirt is good because you can log a lot more stuff, TPS, intet temp, water temp, in the case of the MS3 you can log direct to an SD card that stick in the side of the ecu.

Pedro Silva

http://miniciados.blogspot.pt/

thats just the sensor, you need the gauge(controller) too,

they are about 152 quid

yea sim and add the price of a gauge to go with it.
this is JAW (just another wideband)
http://www.14point7.com/SLC-DIY.php

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

Can we connect the wideband sensor to the aux input from megajolt!?

Pedro Silva

http://miniciados.blogspot.pt/

you can connect the output of the the wideband controller to the aux input of the jolt

You can use MS2 or MS3 for ignition, AFR monitoring and logging without using fuel injection. However, you'll still need the WBO2 controller.

And MS3 does have an SD card for logging purposes but it doesn't have the siamese code (at least not yet and maybe not soon) so if you do decide to go for fuel injection you wouldn't be able to. MS2 would allow you to do so but doesn't have the SD card logging but you can log data with a laptop.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

the wideband can potential be the best buy you will make it is possibly the most usefull tool for tuning and monitoring the engines workings
and the AEMs on ebay are a great steal imo

Yes i moved to the darkside

Instagram @jdm_brett

Ah right. Now knowing this MS 2 looks like the better way to go with future capability.

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

If you are/were thinking about the 14point7.com stuff you must be happy with DIY/soldering etc. so I would suggest you consider an MS2 in kit form.

Most of the technical advantages are mentioned above but in kit form, you only need build the ignition, inputs etc that you need - more economical, espcially if you buy the "partial kit" and source only the components you need over here.

The one technical advantage that no-one seems to have mentioned is that the MS2 can be built to drive the coilpack direct - no need for an EDIS module.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Cheers rod. I'll get the real kit and like u say get build the parts on that I need. That's a good part to know with direct to the coil. Yea putting it together ain't going to be hard, it's the understanding of it.

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

If you buy a full kit, make sure you buy a second ignitor chip, VB921 (or probably now a ISL9V5036P3) as the normal kit only comes with one to drive a standard single coil/dizzy setup. You need a "pair" to drive a coilpack.

If you buy a partial kit, you buy the ignitors and all the other bits seperately anyway.

If you're unsure, post your "shopping list" up here first.

Have a good read of the MS2-Extra manual - you'll need to run the Extra code anyway to get the direct coilpack - and you'll see lots of other additional features you can incorporate.

Also, check the prices at DIYAutotune and Glens Garage in the USA - depending on exchange rate it can be a lot cheaper to buy from them than in the UK (but don't forget to take import duty, VAT and Parcleforce handling charges into account).

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Right ok after loads of research and still not quite there but I atleast know where I'm going this is my current spec I've settled for.
I need to show you guys this so I can now start understanding where I want to go with MS and you guys can hopefully advise me where I might
be wrong or over-specced.

My current 1380 has had alot of work done to it so what I want to do is just Change it to suit my turbo application.

HIF44 carb
Metro inlet manifold
Maniflow large bore exhaust manifold
MED 1.5 ratio roller rockers
Ported/polised, 36/30 valves, bronze guide inserts, 11 stud ARP
+60 thou block, 0.020 skimmed face, linebored
4 bolt main
reground, ni-tempered, x/drilled, wedged, bladed, b/drilled 81.28 stroke crank (balanced)
cooper 's', lightened, polished, shot-peened rods with arp bolts/nuts (balanced)
Omega 73.5 lightweight pistons with 7cc (balanced)
Kent 286 cam with what I think turbo oil pump
Duplex vernier timing chain
lightened steel flywheel with steel back plate and orange coded cover with AP bonded clutch plate (balanced, Pre-Verto)

Thats the major stuff at the moment on my engine that I got all from M.E.D.
Now for my turbo spec I'd like to aim for is 250 bananas with changing a few things but primarily keeping it 1380.

HIF44 carb with Nic's plenum
Metro turbo inlet manifold
Matty's hi-flow exhaust manifold to suit GT2056 turbo
GT2056 turbo
MED 1.5 ratio roller rockers
Ported/polised, 36/30 valves, bronze guide inserts, 11 stud ARP
+60 thou block, 0.020 skimmed face, linebored
4 bolt main
Undercrown oil spray jets
Iil fed thrust washer conversion
Dry Deck
ni-tempered, x/drilled, wedged, bladed, b/drilled 81.28 stroke crank (balanced)
cooper 's', lightened, polished, shot-peened rods with arp bolts/nuts (balanced)
Accralite Forged 73.5mm 18cc pistons
Avonbar Phase 2 Cam with new followers reusing oil pump
Duplex vernier timing chain
Going to Verto RTS clutch to stop destroying my thrust washers.
13 Row oil cooler to maintain 90-100c temp
8:1 Compression ratio


I think this is the major things, I've been researching so much I just can't remember it all now but I know what I want/need to do to get this right
first time without major problems.

Now After some calculations I managed to work out what fueling I'd need and came up with these calculations.

250 bhp, 250x0.55=137.5 lb of fuel/hr so with this I got myself a 255 lph pump
Now I'm running 10mm O/D supply and 12mm O/D return to allow for demand.

Now bare with me as I'm trying to pick this all up quickly but for my turbo choice I settled on this equations which assured me the GT2056 was the
right choice.

12x137.5= 1650 lb of air/hour to burn these 137.5 lb of fuel.
1650/60= 27.5 lb of air pumped by minutes.
27.5x14.27= 392.43 cfm
392x3456(1728x2)/6500rpm= 209 boosted ci (assuming phase 2 peak is 6500 rpm.)

Now the rest I started getting lost as people are discussing the average ve value and what I was told to be average .8 ish now seems to be hoohaa
but from these fab lost me on calcualtions as i dont know what cid is and what to assuing for ve but after a rough guess the GT2056 seems good enough.

Now trying to work out my engine compression ratio backwards is kind of working but at a guess aswell as there doesn't seem to be a formula for
compression 'test' results to compression 'ratio' so I can only assume from my calculations as you will see.

Bore area is therefore 7.351 x 7.351 x 3.14159 / 4 = 42.45 square cm. (where 73.51 is overbore 'assuming')
Volume of 1 cylinder is bore area times stroke = 42.45 x 8.128 = 345 cc
As there are 4 cylinders in the engine the total engine volume is 345 x 4 = 1380 cc

Now this is the part I'm stuck as M.E.D can't remember what cc my chambers are so I'm trying to remember I think my compression ratio is 11:1.
Assuming this:
345cc/11= 31cc in total.

I know my pistons are 7cc so:
31-7=24 cc left for head/gasket/clearance volume. (clearance volume if any)

Now assuming I have 20cc chambers in head:
20cc+18cc (new pistons) = 38cc.

new compression ratio for turboed engine:
(345+38)/38= 10.07cr
to get my down to 8:1 cr I'd need:
345/8= 43cc
43-18=25cc in my head. Now that isn't hard to find just another 5cc's more.

Right so that some of my calculations I've done so far and like I said I can't find any data on my engine from M.E.D and when I strip it, it will
be to turbo it and nice try recover this data.

Now for Megasquirt.
After alot of researching and thinking I think I might end up going towards MS-II. What I want it to definately do is Ignition and AFR monitoring
as I'm being fussy and trying to keep the car looking standard so I dont want a cockpit of clocks and dials when I get in the mini, ideally just
my current 3+3 system (speedo, water temp/fuel gauge, Rev counter + oil pressure, oil temp, boost)

So after looking into MS-II I noticed it can pretty much do the temp recording's, (oil+water) and boost monitoring aswell boost controll where this
seems a good idea but I really only want to run 250 banana's at times and if this is rpm controlled it means it's most of the time so I'd like
a way of turning this down but unfortunately MS doesn't do this. I'd also like a Rev limiter which MS does and I like the idea behind the knock sensor
as it just saves the engine before it going down.

Now from what I understand (very little) and please bare with me again as I'm trying to catch on quickly the MS can do this for me and obviously
I just don't need to install the fuel injection side of things as I will be running carb.

Now this is my current shopping list for MS:

MegaSquirt-II Engine Management System w/PCB3 - UnAssembled Kit
JimStim v1.4 MegaSquirt Stimulator w/ Wheel Simulator -Unassembled Kit
USB to Serial Adapter - Works with MegaTune!
MapDaddy 4 Bar MAP Sensor with Barometric Correction
12' MegaSquirt Wiring Harness (MS1 / MS2 / MS3 Ready)
Bosch BIP373 Coil Driver Mod Kit (need 2 of)
PCBv3 and v2.2 -- Boost Control Mod-Kit
GM Closed Element CLT / IAT Sensor with Connector (dunno if I need 2? 1 for inlet temp and water temp)
EBC Electronic Boost Control Solenoid Kit
Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire, Wide-band O2 Replacement Sensor - 3737

I couldn't find the knock sensor that I'd like to fit.

Right I think that's about it, all my research is now out there. Much advice is welcome as I think I'm on the right path.

Cheers
Quinton

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

From your list of can/can't do, the only one I'm not clear about is boost control. MS2 (using the Extra Code)certainly does boost control using a two dimensional map of throttle position and RPM but what I think you are saying is it doesn't give you two or more modes of operation ie, you only want the highboost/output some of the time. If so, I agree, but..... as the boost control is performed by simply using an electronicaly controlled bleed valve (very accurately as it's PWM driven from the MS2 and you can even have closed loop control), with a bit of ingenuity you could probably just add an external switch to take the drive signal off the solenoid valve and to a dummy load resistor in which case boost would drop back to simple actuator control. (you would probably have to forgoe the closed loop control option in that case or the ECU would be chasing an impossible target).

I assume from some of the numbers, the shopping list is from DIYAutotune rather than Glens Garage...
The two kits, fine. Unless you are going to be doing development work long term (ie, if you ever did go for fuel injection), the JimStim itself is really only needed for initial bulding/testing of the MS2 so you could consider borrowing one.
USB/serial cable - all bar one of the £1.50 ones I've bought from eBay work fine.....
4bar MAP sensor might be overkill - it will read up to 45psi boost.... The bigger the sensor range, the less accurate it is.
Harness not essential, the MS2 kit has a bare plug and so you can make your own up (I did). In fact I think Paul found the pre-made harness didn't have the extra wires for the "spare" connector pins that you might want to use in the future.
BIP373, you will only need two if the MS2 kit has the older (single) VB921 chip. The MS2 kit may have already had its parts list updated to a (single) BIP373 - ask first.
Boost control mod kit, fine but you can do the mod much cheaper (details are in the build manual), it's only uprating a small transistor that used to only operate a relay to a bigger one to control a PWM solenoid valve.
CLT/IAT snsors - no need for the GM ones, in fact they may have old imperial threads on them. Any sensors from a fuel injected car where you know the temperature/resistance curve will do as you can programme the curve ino the MS2 (it just defaults to the GM curves as its a USA product). Paul, Graham and Joe I think are using the normal MPI Rover ones, I'm using Cossie ones.
The boost solenoid kit, again fine, but can be done cheaper (I'm building mine with a secondhand Cossie Amal valve) but then again, the DIYAutotune price is very competetive.
LSU - NO!!!!! The 3737 is just the sensor, you must have a complete sensor and wideband controller kit. The MS2 reads a 0-5V analogue signal from a wideband controller output, not the sensor itself, which won't work without a controller. It doesnt have to be the Innovate that DIYAutotune sell, AEM is a common choice or the 14point7 stuff or if you fancy more DIY, I'm using the TechEdge DIY controllers and displays.

Knock sensor - register on the MS-Extra forums and do a search, there are several suggestions on there. The main problem with the Aseries engine though is siting one where it won't be ifluenced by valvetrain noise.

Hope that helps.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Cheers for that rod, much appreciated taking time to read that.

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose

I think that you would be better selling that head and starting again. iirc with the 36/30 valve combo you end up with not much materialbetween the valves which is likely to crack with thet extra heat of the turbo.

Probably best to confirm this with some of the head boys.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Checked with phil about my head spec and he says it's fine.

http://photobucket.com/quintonrose