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Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > Megasquirt MS3 & MS3X

Paul S

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8563 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

There has been a new Megasquirt available for some time now, but it has only recently that the firmware has passed from beta to full release status.

We have been watching this with interest as the features available are very impressive. Things like on-board data-logging to an SD card mean that we can log a run without a laptop - great for race cars. It also has a USB port, making comms that much easier.

At the moment, the firmware does not include the Siamese Code although there are plans to add it in the future. However, it does injection timing and can be made to emulate the MPi/Hybrid mode that we use in the 998Ti.

For the future, there will be traction control.

Full details are available here:

http://www.ms3efi.com/

We bought a kit last year and Sturgeo put it together in a weekend. It is basically the same as the MS2 but with a different daughterboard.

It also has an extension card, the MS3X which does all the extra bits that normally require ither mods to the boards or other extension boards. So with the MS3X, you can add cam sensor, 2nd O2 sensor, staged injectors etc without any soldering. In fact you could buy one built and set it up for siamese port injection without touching a soldering iron.

The fact that the MS3 and MS3X are effectively daughter/expansion boards means that it can be used to upgrade a MS1 or MS2. The only downside to this is that it is pretty huge.

The only limitations are that it is configured for logic level coils, so you have to use a separate box of ignition drivers or, as I have done, use LS coils. Also, if you insist on using low impedance injectors (Rod) then you will need a separate P&H board.

Obviously it costs a bit more, but we think it is worth it.





Now I have the coils fitted to the 998Ti, I can give it a try.

Edited by Paul S on 24th Mar, 2011.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Joe C

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12151 Posts
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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

the USB hole is a great feature too!

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

https://joe1977.imgbb.com/



Carl S
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Stourport-on-Severn

Excellent, I have also been following the development of MS3 and MS3X with great interest, and am very glad to see it is finally out of beta stages.

I would buy an MS3 kit, but don't really have a reason to upgrade to it as MS2 does all that I need for the moment. If I ever get in to the serious performance areas using injection then I will definitely have to consider purchasing one :)

Does Jean have any info on when the Siamese code will be available for MS3/MS3X?


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

The siamese options are possibly going to be included in V2.0 of the firmware, so is some time away, possibly next year.

However, we shall be testing it in a few weeks in MPi mode which I have found to work fine on the MS2.

There are other ways in which it could be used with siamesed port injection. You can even assign O2 sensors to particular injectors and run closed loop AFR control. Think about it.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

mmmm interesting.


On 24th Mar, 2011 Paul S said:
. You can even assign O2 sensors to particular injectors and run closed loop AFR control. Think about it.

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

https://joe1977.imgbb.com/



Brett

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Doncaster, South Yorkshire

very

My B18VtecTurbo Awd Mini 2 years in, been running for 2years +.... vtec just kicked in yo
Instagram @jdm_brett

On 14th Feb, 2014 robert said:
I think he thought his car was 465kg ,and you then guessed it at 565kg , and stuff me !! you were right


apbellamy

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16533 Posts
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King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner

Rotherham, South Yorkshire

Let's see it's innards then.

On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it

*hehe!*


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/build_manual.html

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

https://joe1977.imgbb.com/



Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

On 24th Mar, 2011 Paul S said:
Also, if you insist on using low impedance injectors (Rod) then you will need a separate P&H board.


There are other ways of approaching this with MS3 (Paul knows what I'm up to) but with both the MS2 and MS3 solutions it all gets a bit confused over the licencing issues if you start designing and using your own mainboard PCB with just the MS2 or MS3 daughterboard purchased by itself and plugged in.

The MS3 solution Paul is working on is great for high z injectors, but I have to do it a different way for low z.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

It also has individual cylinder trims for the fueling.

So you could set it up fully sequential driving an injector per cylinder.

Trim the inner cylinders to account for wall wetting.

Fit two widebands, inner and outer cylinders, then assign each cylinder to a wideband and tell it to use the AFR target table.

You will be limited to pulses every 180 degrees, but you can tell them when to fire. Idle pulse widths may be a little low.

Worth a try?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

It is certainly worth a try.

It's reasonably obvious looking at the MEMS wiring diagrams that Rover did the MPI by using their 4 channel sequential MEMS box and just paralleling up channels 1+2 to drive one injector and channels 3+4 to drive the other injector, then put the timing (or fuelling) offsets on the four individual channels.

So that is very easy to replicate with the MS3 and MS3X card - including having another four channels for staged injection.

But it's only easy with high z injectors :(

The FET outputs for high z injectors shouldn't mind being paralleled up (like MEMS did) but for low z, the P+H chips have to measure the injector current at a one to one basis so I don't think I could parallel up the P+H outputs.

The easiest way I can see around this for low z is to do the paralleling up at logic level with a simple 1407 (8 into 4) OR gate and keep individual P+H drives for the 4 or 6 injectors..... which is what I'm working on as a sideline.

But for the time being, I'll stick with MS2 but keep the options for MS3 open.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

For our first attempt, we have set it up to emulate the hybrid/MPi mode.

Using injectors outputs A & C as the primary injectors. Injector output E & G as the staged injectors.

Using the VE and ignition tables from the MS2 setup. Same injection timing table as the MS2, but with 360 dgrees added as it uses a different datum. Thanks to Jean for confirming this - we would have struggled otherwise.

Also copied across all the WUE, ASE, AE stuff as well.

The MS3X loom is fitted in the car, so all we have to do is swap over the injectors, coils and cam sensor to the MS3x loom, fit the ECU and turn the key *happy*

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


evolotion

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Glasgow, Scotland

God im so out of the MS loop these days, my ol' clockwork ms1 still does the job lol reading with interest!! keep it up :)

turbo 16v k-series 11.9@118.9 :)

Denis O'Brien.


Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

I know you prefer the "hybrid siamese" mode so it's obviously sensible to start that way, but are you going to try it with the outputs paralleled like MEMS did just to prove whether it can be made to replicate the normal siamese mode ???

Or are you leaving that to me :(

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland


On 26th Mar, 2011 Rod S said:
I know you prefer the "hybrid siamese" mode so it's obviously sensible to start that way, but are you going to try it with the outputs paralleled like MEMS did just to prove whether it can be made to replicate the normal siamese mode ???


Maybe in the future, but at the moment we are just hoping to get a running ECU/Injector/Coil setup that we can put on the Miglia to run the fresh engine up without too much hassle.

We are planning to get another MS3 sometime this year for another NA road project where that would be possible.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

YEH BABY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r0YPU7_UE8

Runs like a dream. Fired first turn of the the key then died. Found that the VR sensor had come disconnected, but not before taking the ECU to bits to adjust the VR sensors. Hence the ECU in bits :$

Only had to adjust the Req_Fuel to get a decent AFR at idle. There would be more adjustments to get it to run properly on this car, but that is not intended at this point in time.

It proves the CNPs setup and also shows that the injection timing table in the standard MS3 setup will run injection on the 5 Port.

Well chuffed.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


apbellamy

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16533 Posts
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King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner

Rotherham, South Yorkshire

*Clapping*

On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it

*hehe!*


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

It was runing so well that we decided to take it round the block.

Ran flawlessly. Seemless transition into staged injection on boost.

At full boost it's a bit rich, but equalish AFRs all the way up.

If we get a bit of time, we may refine the settings, so that we can leave it on the car until we need the ECU for the Miglia.

So, that's a standard ECU build that will do 5 Port injection PROPERLY straight out the box. Great Stuff.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Yo-Han

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North of the Netherlands

Paul, really amazing how you keep improving your setup *Clapping*

Reading the stuff you achieve make me reconcider my setup time and time again.
However reading about all the new efi improvements also really make me doubt if I could ever get something like that to work...

Anyway, compliments for your achievements!

Dazed and Confused....


John

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Topping Geezer

Barnsley, South Flatcapshire

Wicked Paul! Still watching with interest *smiley*

When you going to make these kits *wink*

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

Just been round the block again on full boost :)

Trying to work out how to retrieve the datalog from the SD card, but my IT man is not about.

The kits are coming, just need to get the prototype manifolds built and tested on the Dyno and strip.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Ratty

95 Posts
Member #: 9314
Advanced Member

Chippenham, Wilts

Well done Paul :)

I have a few questions

What changes would be required to run a coil pack instead of CNP

Also my MS1 is built using a V3 board, do I just need the MS3, MS3X boards and case to upgrade


sturgeo

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Member #: 1778
Post Whore

Northants

If you wanted to run a coilpack you can get the external ignition driver box.

As you say, upgrading from ms1 when using a v3 board should be just the ms3 daughtercard, ms3x expansion card and the larger case.


Ratty

95 Posts
Member #: 9314
Advanced Member

Chippenham, Wilts

What about driving the coil as I dont fancy COP or CNP as I
I'm trying to keep the original look

Edited by Ratty on 10th Apr, 2011.


Paul S

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8563 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

If your MS1 board has two coil drivers, then you can use the EDIS coil as it is.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

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