question for turbodave:spark plugs
Turbo Mini Forums

Quote from manchester minis page:'I will never use NGK plugs again as long as I live!'
Whay, share the expirience. What champion plugs do you use?
I have problem with ignition too...when I rise boost above 0.9 bar(13 psi) engine starts to misfire, not detonate. CR is 8:1, I have big intercooler and F/A ratio is arround 1:12.5-13, dizzy is blocked set to 20?. I have tried ngk's 6s and 9s and no luck. I have std. metro turbo ignition system (old type). What do you thik what is the problem? I think that metro turbo ignition is not powerfull enough. I am now working on ford EDIS system that I plan to install togethetr with tbi programable injection (plan to drive ignition and edis from same ecu), so I hope that that will cure the problem, and that way I'll have programable ignition too. What do you think?

i was going to ask a similar thing, why do you guys not like NGK's?

A-series power! 1972|1310|T3 turbo|Omega pistons|Cantre main strap|Orange clutch diaphragm|AP race plate|Comp pressure plate|Lightened steel flywheel|13-row oil cooler|Vernier duplex timing gear|Phase 2 Piper cam|Green air filter|Hi boost carb needle/spring|2"Stainless exhaust|3"Play mini stainless rear box|Jack Knight s/c 4spd gearbox|Jack Knight s/c drop gears|Silicon coolant hoses|Lumenition HT leads|GAZ lowered height shocks all round|Steel flip-front|Rear safety devices cage|Group 5 arches|6x12 deep dish Minilites|Surf blue/Old english white|

Right then... (stands on soapbox)

I've had it up to my hind teeth with NGK plugs. This is not however confided to just minis - but Fords and other cars aswell.
In the last 5/6 years i've had around a half dozen NGK plugs that did not work out of the box, or within seconds of first using them. Two have been on Ford Pinto engines, one was on a VW polo, two on my mini, and one on a Ford CVH. Except for my mini, the others were ALL standard spec plugs, on standard engines. I only continued to use NGK as it is all i can get hold of round here (now i know where to look!)

In my mini, i spent 3 years using NGK plugs, and have had too many problems with them. Admittedly i'm using a modern (wasted spark) coil system, and have a reasonably powerful engine, but i'd been through around 10/12 plugs in my mini - not including the 'out of the box' failures.
Occasionally they would fail whilst driving (made no difference if under boost or cruise).
More commonly (and annoyingly), after shutting down after a hard run, once the engine had cooled right down, they ceased to work properly under load. This was often hard to find, as they would generally work fine at tickover and cranking the engine with the plug removed, but would ?fail? under the combustion pressures. Occasionally they were completely dead however.
Not having a Rolling road on my driveway, I could only detect which plug had gone down by replacing each plug, one by one, with a known good plug. Very time consuming and annoying!

I spoke to NGK on two separate occasions, and even offered to send them a handful of my DEAD plugs (including the ZMPD ? Zero Mileage Product Defect items) but they never seemed really interested in sorting this. Their technical team did confirm on two separate occasions (once on the phone, once at AutoSport2002) the plug I was using was correct however.

At the same AutoSport show in Jan 2002, I spoke to Champion spark plugs. My problems with NGK plugs were of great interest to them (not surprisingly)! They offered me a coffee, we sat and discussed my engine spec, and they all agreed I should try Champion C57C race plugs (designed specifically for BIG hp Cosworth turbo engines). They considered the C59 (slightly hotter) but settled on the Cooler plug. They didn?t offer me any for free, but one of the techies gave me a direct number to call and report how things were going, good or bad, offering me immediate, free replacement if any failed, on the basis that I would send them the failed items for analysis. If this was the case, they reckoned they would be able to advise on what could be wrong, or suggest a different plug to suit.
Overall ? they were absolutely fantastic, especially I was only going to be purchasing a set of plugs that ended up costing under 40 quid!!!

Well what can I say? I noticed no great increase in power (but 2hp is not obvious when you have 140+ hp!!!), but I?ve only ever had to change ONE plug since march 2002, and that was because I dropped it (incidentally it did the same thing as the NGK plugs ? worked fine at tickover, but failed under load?). Given I was doing a plug every 300-600 miles up till then, and the reliability increased overnight, I think the evidence is pretty obvious.

I now know a lot better, and If I ever need a new set of plugs for any car, and my nearest spares places only have NGK in stock, I walk away. Main dealers are surprisingly cheap for stock plugs, and for those who might be next door to a Ford dealer, Motocraft plugs for cosworths are highly rated.
This link will give useful part numbers: http://www.grahamgoode.com/cosworth/tip.htm

(I?m getting off my soapbox now!)

Hope that little lot helps!!!
D

Edited by turbodave16v on 8th Dec, 2003.

oh, Jimster is also running these C57 plugs on his engine (almost identical to mine). I don't know if he's had any issues with them, but i'm sure he'll say!!!

D

I'm using the same plugs as Dave, never had a problem with them. I also had problem with NGK's in the early days, but I havn't used them now for around 5 years.

As Dave said, my engine is almost the same as his, (only a better colour)

Team Racing

Most people i tell about this can't believe it either. All i can go off is what i've experienced with both modded and stock items.
It is interesting that hardly any cosworth specialists recomend NGK plugs; Most specify Champion or MotorCraft - despite NGK selling a range applicable to cosworths....

I can safely say ive had problems with ngk plugs.

Often find that one seems to go dead. Very annoying!

Think ill have to invest in a good set soon, i used to be able to get champion from my lucas dealer at a good price but cant anymore.

Halfords sell them?!?

Excellent - someone else backs me on the NGK issue I seem to remember on miniclassic around 18months ago I was the only person in the world who had probs with NGK!

Yeah i hadnt had many problems till then! Just thought it was run of the mill.

Think the turbo helped increased the rate at which is ate plugs but it was still way too fast and seemingly good plugs failed.

Funny thing was i chucked in some really old plugs i had lying about even though they werent perfect for the job and they outlasted the ngk's!!
Plus they'd already done 12k+ in another car!!!!

don't disbelieve you dave...

just not had problems myself...

so as I said I'll watch out and at the 1st sign switch to another brand

AlexF

interesting reading peoples different experiences with the different plugs, ive only ever ran NGK's on a standard 1275, which ran quite well with them in.

Has anyone bought the new book that is out by Haynes? "Mini performance manual" by tim mundy? there is a picture of me on page 152, i remember it being taken at a mini rolling road day. also, it says under the turbo section about using NGK B7 ECS which has a retarded nose?!? is this nose the equiv of colder stage plugs??

cheers

A-series power! 1972|1310|T3 turbo|Omega pistons|Cantre main strap|Orange clutch diaphragm|AP race plate|Comp pressure plate|Lightened steel flywheel|13-row oil cooler|Vernier duplex timing gear|Phase 2 Piper cam|Green air filter|Hi boost carb needle/spring|2"Stainless exhaust|3"Play mini stainless rear box|Jack Knight s/c 4spd gearbox|Jack Knight s/c drop gears|Silicon coolant hoses|Lumenition HT leads|GAZ lowered height shocks all round|Steel flip-front|Rear safety devices cage|Group 5 arches|6x12 deep dish Minilites|Surf blue/Old english white|

Interesting indeed.

I have used NGK?s with excellent results. The only major issue was with my 970S engine with 8-port head. This head needs C8E type plug with 10 mm thread. The engine started easily, ran nice and the next time nothing. And I mean nothing. Plugs were wet, cleaned them, checked for spark. OK, back in, try again. Short cough and dead again. Eventually I bought C7HSA (same type but shorter thread and warmer plug) and had zero issues since.

I am a bit surprised to see recommendations like BP8ES and even BP9ES for high boost turbo engines. Race engine is one thing but road going engines do not really need that cold plugs. Rich mixtures seem to kill NGK cold plugs like 8 or 9 very fast. I have used BP7ES with great success, eve?n BP6ES worked great at 10 psi. I did buy some B7EV plugs years ago but they were basically waste of money.

Jukka

ive just started having problems with my ignition...humm may have to look closer at those ngk plugs...

mine isnt turbo, yet, so isnt a direct comparison - but i think i'll be trying some champion units out over christmas.

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

Incidentally, i used 8's in my engine - off NGK's reccomendations. I recall it being a lot smoother off-boost on the 7's however, but was willing to go with what they said...
One other point - I did use the 'resistor' variants- needed for the reduction of interference to the ECU...

I always just assumed i was unlucky - but the zero mile defects on standard plugs, along with the 'attitude' of NGK (compared to Champion) is why i personally won't use them again.

I've mostly used NGK plugs, but then again I have no experience on Blown engines. In all my N/A engines They have worked well, although life has proven rather short.

And Jim. You're wrong. Only Volvos look good with red engines. Dave's is MUCH better looking :)

ngk or not ngk?
my though are that Dave is a perfectionist, and in this way he's liking good contact with makers, and as he knows is stuf ( th Dave , I'm learning english easily when someone send flowers to me ) ; ngk were a little disapointed with his specials questions and interogations, and as they are the world firsts, they didn't get attention to this,...... you know the next;
ngk are makingplugs for identified genuine engine specs, and i used them for a while in my cbr, zzr motorbikes with a last change yesterday (after 30 000 km and still untroubled), and they worked fine, also I'm using ngk's spakplugs, in some 1380's and nearly std metro turbo , with no problem.
I think th e problem is that Dave have a very hot engine and that genuine plugs can't ignite all this fuell in rega

the end........
in regard to his power level , and there champion, which took the time to understand the situation , came with an other set of plugs, more indicated for Dave's engine.....and others with the same specs;
to finish, if you have an engine so modified that std plugs can't do the job, try a known database or if impossible, ask a good maker to help you, ngk seem to don't care with this, so try bosch's, champion's premium's nippon denson's etc etc , but I think that they are all very good quality plugs.
fab

Ok. I'm changing plugs for easier starts ( I hope). I cannot get Champion over the counter here, but I can get NGKs. Which ones should I choos on Mark's engine? Mark, Jon, Dave??

Now there are three BP7ES and one 8. Will 7 suffice?? I've also notoced that the ones present have got a recessed electrode. Good idea?

arh , that might explain why i`ve got 3 8`s and 1 7 in the blue car. I have always used receesed nose 7`s and the only problem i`ve had is that they foul up a bit if the engine is started many times in the garage and not actually run on the road. 8`s in the blue one also seem to have run fine , 2 track days and 3 drag strip days .

Everyone knows that instructions only have to be read if the thing doesn't work....

i've not used ngk's either for a long time, i was doing some servicing on my old erst, and they worked fine for the first outing (std engine), then next time i took her out it was crap, ending up getting some motorcraft ones!

OK, I'll get a new set today.
They were very black Mark, but the spark looked OK. I did drive a long time with the choke on.

they will be very black if the cars on choke

no longer a series, but still 1.3 turbo.

7's will makeit a lot easier to start and run when cold.

How is it running now Vegard?

It's sh1te. I cannot get it running properly after the fuel regulator went haywire. I'l try another gauge to see.

Also, the dizzy has worked itself loose, so I'v got another issue there.

Note: This is not Mark's fault :) Oh well, he could hvae tightened the two nuts better :)

Edited by Vegard on 30th Aug, 2004.

the ignition is easy to fix...

Now, what's up with the fuelling - still the same problem as before? Have you got another regulator / diaphram?