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Home > 998cc > Pre Build 998 Turbo Build ?'s 7 port head, stock internals

408.Luke

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36 Posts
Member #: 9909
Member

Tyler, Texas

Im about to start purchasing parts for my 998 Turbo build but i have a few questions after searching around and reading up on some stuff. Im trying to get 90% of my parts this summer before i tear it down this fall.
1) will a 7 port head work on a 998 (valve to block clearance issues) i found this head in another thread and seems like a great deal since i dont have to pay for inter national shipping. 1.3" intake 1.15" exhaust valves http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-7-port-Alloy-1...=item35b20650bc
2) is this head a good head? Does anyone know if its a knock off of someone else or are all 7 port heads generally the same?
3) what will stock internals hold? I will eventually upgrade but would just like to run stock rotating assy right now with bigger ring gaps and bearing clearances, its sounds like 10psi is about it but what if you run e85? Also is there a good write up on how to build an A series somewhere?
4) Turbo size, im looking into a turbonetics T3 turbo because for the most part used stock application turbos over here are a little to big im afraid plus conditions of these are usually bad with 100+k hard miles and they want $250+ for anything that seems a reasonable size so im looking at
-Compressor 35 or 40 trim w/ 3" inlet
F1-49 Turbine wheel with .36 ar and the v-band inlet & discharge
turbo link http://turboneticsinc.com/store/index.php?...&product_id=530
Is this going to work? im use to turbos for big V8s 90mm+ compressor wheels and big 1.0 A/R's so this is insanely new to me.

Here is the plan for the car.
-Stock 998 Bottom end
-7 Port head
-Cam- ?
-Megasquirt 3 (yall have me convinced on this) going to run GM LS1 coils and injectors (33lbs/hr) with a 76mm tb on a sheet metal intake. injectors, coils, and TB are free and why im using them
-Stainless Turbo header that ill make myself unsure on tube size ive got lots of 1 3/4 lying around but im afraid thats to big
-Cold side will consist of normal piping and a Air to Air FMIC made from a core
-Built Trans (any one know a builder in the US not sure if i can take this on myself)
-Tubular K-member and possibly coilovers
- Fuel system AN fuel rail from FAST fuel rail stock -6 (3/8") feed and return, possible aluminum fuel cell if i can still fit spare in trunk.

Im really having trouble trying to decide how far to go with the build because i only have a few months to build it this winter until i need it done for my daily driver again. The car needs to be straightened (i think) and if i straighten it i think it will need some body work and paint (no to mention the rust) i might put a 6 point cage in it and im also going to have to build a dash & gauge setup. Ive got to tread carefully so it doesn't turn into a 3 year build like my Race truck. And a little inspiration





Edited by 408.Luke on 29th Apr, 2012.

-1974 Mini 1000 - BRG Turbo Build Soon to come

-04.5 LLY Duramax - RC/LB - White - Built Trans - EFILive - Dropped 4/6

-2013 TDI Passat - SEL - White - Lowered on Coilovers - Daily Driver

-2003 Silverado SS - 408 Stroker - DP NO2 - Full Suspension ~900hp For Sale


wolfie

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Somewhere around Swindon

same head as mine

you will have to budget for man sized valves, porting and polishing and fabricating a plenum with injector pockets is a pig and costly the sc head is better value imo even though the core unit is more expensive.

you can see by build thread below sadly i have not done anything on it for a while due to other commitments
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=363514

Crystal Sound Audio said:

Why wolfie...you should have your name as Fuckfaceshithead !


"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely
foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."-Douglas Adams


408.Luke

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36 Posts
Member #: 9909
Member

Tyler, Texas




On 29th Apr, 2012 wolfie said:
same head as mine

you will have to budget for man sized valves, porting and polishing and fabricating a plenum with injector pockets is a pig and costly the sc head is better value imo even though the core unit is more expensive.

you can see by build thread below sadly i have not done anything on it for a while due to other commitments
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=363514


That SC head is awesome, but is a 998 bore big enough for its valves? and i wonder if they will ship to the US. As far as the intake (or any fab work for that matter) wont be an issue as long as i can get a hold of all the flanges needed. I help a friend out at his shop who is a fabricator, he built all the suspension for my truck and is an aluminum welding god. Im mainly worried about the engine and trans bits. Im glad i found that fuel rail you used too, thats a awesome deal.

-1974 Mini 1000 - BRG Turbo Build Soon to come

-04.5 LLY Duramax - RC/LB - White - Built Trans - EFILive - Dropped 4/6

-2013 TDI Passat - SEL - White - Lowered on Coilovers - Daily Driver

-2003 Silverado SS - 408 Stroker - DP NO2 - Full Suspension ~900hp For Sale


Turbo Phil

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3779 Posts
Member #: 20
My sister is so fit I won't show anyone her picture

Lake District

You can get SC to fit the smaller 33-29 valves in their head as they did for Wil/Bens car.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM


wil_h

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8526 Posts
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Betwix Harrogate and York

Yep the SC can be fitted with better sized valves and the port size is more suited to the 998 engine. The SC head will need pockets in the block, but nothing else.

Some stuff on my 998 7-port build here http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=413209

As for the rest of your questions:

1) will a 7 port head work on a 998 (valve to block clearance issues) i found this head in another thread and seems like a great deal since i dont have to pay for inter national shipping. 1.3" intake 1.15" exhaust valves http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-7-port-Alloy-1...=item35b20650bc personally, as above, I'd spend your money on the superior SC head
2) is this head a good head? Does anyone know if its a knock off of someone else or are all 7 port heads generally the same? all these heads are cast in the US by a company called Pierce, nothing fundamentally wrong with them. they are based on an AKM head originally developed in Denmark for a specific race series. The ports were really to big though, the Pierce head is an improvement but still not great
3) what will stock internals hold? I will eventually upgrade but would just like to run stock rotating assy right now with bigger ring gaps and bearing clearances, its sounds like 10psi is about it but what if you run e85? Also is there a good write up on how to build an A series somewhere? depends what you mean by stock? I run totally standard bottom end at 12psi and around 120bhp, sees 7k regularly and no problems
4) Turbo size, im looking into a turbonetics T3 turbo because for the most part used stock application turbos over here are a little to big im afraid plus conditions of these are usually bad with 100+k hard miles and they want $250+ for anything that seems a reasonable size so im looking at
-Compressor 35 or 40 trim w/ 3" inlet there is lots of choice, have a search on here for ideas, IHI RHF3 or 4, GT15 for a start
F1-49 Turbine wheel with .36 ar and the v-band inlet & discharge
turbo link http://turboneticsinc.com/store/index.php?...&product_id=530
Is this going to work? im use to turbos for big V8s 90mm+ compressor wheels and big 1.0 A/R's so this is insanely new to me. this looks ok, but a compressor map would be more useful for me to give a definate answer

Here is the plan for the car.
-Stock 998 Bottom end
-7 Port head
-Cam- ? Ken MD500
-Megasquirt 3 (yall have me convinced on this) going to run GM LS1 coils and injectors (33lbs/hr) with a 76mm tb on a sheet metal intake. injectors, coils, and TB are free and why im using them
-Stainless Turbo header that ill make myself unsure on tube size ive got lots of 1 3/4 lying around but im afraid thats to big
-Cold side will consist of normal piping and a Air to Air FMIC made from a core
-Built Trans (any one know a builder in the US not sure if i can take this on myself) your'll need a stronger diff. Most use the minispares cross-pin
-Tubular K-member and possibly coilovers
- Fuel system AN fuel rail from FAST fuel rail stock -6 (3/8") feed and return, possible aluminum fuel cell if i can still fit spare in trunk.

Edited by wil_h on 30th Apr, 2012.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Prescott Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder
Oliver's Mount Modified Series Production upto 1400cc Hill record holder
Thoresby Park Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:

the design shows a distinct lack or imagination,
talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol

On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry.


Paul S

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8140 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

Have a read of this:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=458167

A 7 port on a 998 is not going to be good as a daily drive.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


minivan63

109 Posts
Member #: 9645
Advanced Member

South Wales

If the SAAB turbo's were imported into the US you should be able to get hold of a Gt17 easy enough. You should also be able to get a new garret GT1548 in the US, which may be better for a daily drive for the same price as the T3 you posted.

Edit:
Have a look here: http://www.turbobygarrett.com
If you have a search on here there is a link to a supplier in the US can' remember their name

Edited by minivan63 on 30th Apr, 2012.


Ben H

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3306 Posts
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Senior Member

Melton Mowbray, Pie Country

On 30th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
Have a read of this:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=458167

A 7 port on a 998 is not going to be good as a daily drive.


I think the SC will make a nice daily drive, with the right turbo, but the pierce heads might be a different matter.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.


Paul S

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8140 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

Has anyone actually established the difference between the SC and the Pierce heads or is it just heresay?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


John

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Topping Geezer

Barnsley, South Flatcapshire

I can tell you 2 differences.

1. Pierce = Cast, SC = CNC
2. Pierce = No Injector Pockets, SC = Injector Pockets

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.


Paul S

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8140 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

The issue is more about the port size. Too big and you wont get decent VE off-boost. That is then magnified by the short intake runners.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Ben H

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3306 Posts
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Senior Member

Melton Mowbray, Pie Country

SC can taylor the head to you needs (within limits). He is starting with a lump of metal after all. The pierce heads are a fixed casting so if the ports are too big they can't be made smaller.

http://www.twin-turbo.co.uk
http://www.hillclimbandsprint.co.uk/default.asp

A man without a project is like a like a woman without a shopping list.


408.Luke

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36 Posts
Member #: 9909
Member

Tyler, Texas

Id really like to go 7 port partly for looks and partly for ease of tuning, its a tough call though because i dont want it to be a dog down low and i would really like to see over 35mpg's. I could see how long i could get the runner and hope for the best i guess and the fact that you can get smaller valves for the SC head i would think help out with this problem. Also cam selection would come into play. Then turbo size maybe go a little smaller than normal for a quicker spool? I would just run E85 which would help a ton with spooling but my mileage would be horrible

-1974 Mini 1000 - BRG Turbo Build Soon to come

-04.5 LLY Duramax - RC/LB - White - Built Trans - EFILive - Dropped 4/6

-2013 TDI Passat - SEL - White - Lowered on Coilovers - Daily Driver

-2003 Silverado SS - 408 Stroker - DP NO2 - Full Suspension ~900hp For Sale


408.Luke

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36 Posts
Member #: 9909
Member

Tyler, Texas




On 30th Apr, 2012 Ben H said:
SC can taylor the head to you needs (within limits). He is starting with a lump of metal after all. The pierce heads are a fixed casting so if the ports are too big they can't be made smaller.


I was wondering the same thing, maybe they could write another program for a smaller cc runner for the 998's. It probably wouldn't be worth their time tho

-1974 Mini 1000 - BRG Turbo Build Soon to come

-04.5 LLY Duramax - RC/LB - White - Built Trans - EFILive - Dropped 4/6

-2013 TDI Passat - SEL - White - Lowered on Coilovers - Daily Driver

-2003 Silverado SS - 408 Stroker - DP NO2 - Full Suspension ~900hp For Sale


jbelanger

1115 Posts
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Post Whore

Montreal, Canada

On 30th Apr, 2012 Ben H said:
SC can taylor the head to you needs (within limits). He is starting with a lump of metal after all.

While they could, do you know that they actually offer this? Customizing like this could be a time consuming process (and expensive).

On 30th Apr, 2012 Ben H said:
The pierce heads are a fixed casting so if the ports are too big they can't be made smaller.

But are they too big or not?

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

the SC ports are a good size... think in terms of similar to the K100 ports,

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Turbo Phil

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3779 Posts
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My sister is so fit I won't show anyone her picture

Lake District

I've not seen a Pierce head in the flesh, but I've seen Joes Minisport 7 port head. If the ports on the Pierce head are anything like the Minisport head then the SC ports are much smaller.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM


wil_h

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Betwix Harrogate and York

SC ports are 34mm at the flange.

Can someone measure the Pierce head now.

As Jean says, I'm sure that if you gave John enough money he could do anything. But as standard, the only options are valve size and combustion chamber volume.

I also believe the SC head could be made to work well on a daily. all from actually having a 998 with an SC head (although I agree it's far from road spec. But actually I'd use the same valve sizes and cam, plus I'd use a smaller turbo and a higher CR.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Prescott Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder
Oliver's Mount Modified Series Production upto 1400cc Hill record holder
Thoresby Park Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:

the design shows a distinct lack or imagination,
talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol

On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry.


Joe C

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11098 Posts
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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

the minisport head is 40mm and I'm positive the Pierce head is the same, although the runners on the pierce head are about 1/2" shorter.
the AKM heads used to be 45mm.

I reckon the SC head would be great on a 998 too,

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Paul S

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8140 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

I lost interest when he said he wanted the 7 Port for looks :( I always said the 7 Port was a well marketed fashion accessory :)

Sounds like he should avoid the Pierce head.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


408.Luke

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36 Posts
Member #: 9909
Member

Tyler, Texas




On 30th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I lost interest when he said he wanted the 7 Port for looks :(


HAHA looks are just a bonus, if it came down to the 7 port not being good for a daily driver i would have no problem running a 5 port. I just see alot of advantages to running a 7 port. From being able to tune each cylinder so you dont have to flood the inner two, a shorter cold side as well. your intake also isnt sitting right over your turbo heat soaking the crap out of it. If feel sure there were a few more advantages that ive thought of that have eluded me right now but if im not certain i can get a SC 7 port to work on a Daily Driver ill order a 5 port.

-1974 Mini 1000 - BRG Turbo Build Soon to come

-04.5 LLY Duramax - RC/LB - White - Built Trans - EFILive - Dropped 4/6

-2013 TDI Passat - SEL - White - Lowered on Coilovers - Daily Driver

-2003 Silverado SS - 408 Stroker - DP NO2 - Full Suspension ~900hp For Sale


wil_h

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8526 Posts
Member #: 123
Post Whore

Betwix Harrogate and York

I know I gaine over 20bhp (same rpm) over the 5-port when I fitted the 7-port.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Prescott Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder
Oliver's Mount Modified Series Production upto 1400cc Hill record holder
Thoresby Park Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:

the design shows a distinct lack or imagination,
talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol

On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry.


wil_h

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8526 Posts
Member #: 123
Post Whore

Betwix Harrogate and York

Well that makes the pierce head 40% larger, quite a differance then!


On 30th Apr, 2012 Joe C said:
the minisport head is 40mm and I'm positive the Pierce head is the same, although the runners on the pierce head are about 1/2" shorter.
the AKM heads used to be 45mm.

I reckon the SC head would be great on a 998 too,

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Prescott Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder
Oliver's Mount Modified Series Production upto 1400cc Hill record holder
Thoresby Park Modified Series Production upto 1400cc course record holder

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:

the design shows a distinct lack or imagination,
talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol

On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry.


408.Luke

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36 Posts
Member #: 9909
Member

Tyler, Texas

On 30th Apr, 2012 wil_h said:
I know I gaine over 20bhp (same rpm) over the 5-port when I fitted the 7-port.


On 1st May, 2012 wil_h said:
Well that makes the pierce head 40% larger, quite a differance then!


That's a huge gain! And if the SC is 40% smaller than a pierce how does the SC compare to a normal ported head run on a 998?

Edited by 408.Luke on 1st May, 2012.

-1974 Mini 1000 - BRG Turbo Build Soon to come

-04.5 LLY Duramax - RC/LB - White - Built Trans - EFILive - Dropped 4/6

-2013 TDI Passat - SEL - White - Lowered on Coilovers - Daily Driver

-2003 Silverado SS - 408 Stroker - DP NO2 - Full Suspension ~900hp For Sale


Paul S

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8140 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland


On 30th Apr, 2012 wil_h said:
I know I gaine over 20bhp (same rpm) over the 5-port when I fitted the 7-port.


Have you been back to the Dyno then Wil ?

On 21st Apr, 2011 wil_h said:
Actual figure 178bhp @ 7300
144 lbft @ 6200

This was at 18 psi, the old engine made 153bhp at 15psi, this one made 164 at 15psi.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Home > 998cc > Pre Build 998 Turbo Build ?'s 7 port head, stock internals
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