formula 1 fun with numbers
Turbo Mini Forums

hi chaps,

reading a jerez thread on ph got me thinking ,thanks to the graph put up on fuel flow , I
thought hmm, that could be grossly reinterpreted to give the bhp that flow could supply etc etc...

note, first off ,this takes into account no frictional losses ,no harmonics , or any other part of engine design , its purely to do with what if you could use the fuel they give you to its max .

I used 3 different bscf( basically how much power an engine can make for a set amount of fuel) I used .55 a fairly normal turbo engine output trying to be economical ,.45 a reasonable na engine and .35 a very low figure indeed .

I am imagining the f1 engineers are playing with stratified charge,induction and chamber turbulence, multi spark and everything else they can to run lean (average)as possible .hence the use of the .35 figure .



so first I did the bhp calc..





then the torque..






then added 147.5lbs/ft (200nm) to the torque all the way along the rev range,since the regs allow 200nm with no mention of rpm limit .(I have probably missed it and its only allowed between 5600 and 6400 rpm!)







then did the same for bhp ,at this point I thought hmm, this seems a bit of a big gain ,and then made the assumption that they probably cannot make 200nm all through the rpm range and at some point the system would melt,blow a fuse,fall off the car,sieze,or just go flat forever .if they can make it make 200nm at 15k rpm things look rosy !







and then all the data on one graph.





note ,this entire mass of data is a gross oversimplification .but it will be fun to see how close it all is ,also anything under 5k or so would probably be off cam and redundant.i imagine the real world bsfc is going to be around .45.

regards
robert

Edited by robert on 2nd Feb, 2014.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Don't they make around 600 bhp and than get an extra 150 bananas from recovered energy?

But if they run at full fuel flow for the whole race they'll not make the end.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

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Wasn't last year 800hp? Seems quite a drop as gp2 is 550hp limit if I'm not mistaken

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Yeah, but this time the ERS is constantly available (no KERS button) so as long as you've stored enough energy, you've got the additional 150 whenever you want.

One big problem will be that a recovery system failure will now become a much bigger problem than previous years.

This is FORD country, on a quiet day you can hear Vauxhalls rusting.

Oh dear, Robert's found his coloured crayons again

Have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ihblshF_hQ

They are using the waste energy that would have gone through the wastegate by driving a generator off the turbo. Electronic boost control by loading the generator to limit turbo speed, I guess.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Green it may be, but I suspect it'll still be dull compared to how F1 and touring car races were in the early/mid 90's...

update ,with the 161 bhp added to both graphs ,the bhp one is pretty predictable






the torque one I found interesting , I added the unassisted trq line ,and the 200nm .45 bsfc line to show the crossover point , in case both limits are used .




looks like around 5600 rpm is the crossover point , would be fun if they used a 200nm limit all the way through,but there certainly is some serious torque going on in the lower rpm range, unfortunately well off cam and unlikely to manifest in a real world engine .

id very very vaguely guess best possible is going to be around 425 lbs/ft .

regards
robert

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

this is a good one ..

http://youtu.be/4vIjJg0lXgc

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Still not sure what you are trying to say with all these graphs. Having said that I'm not familiar with what the F1 regs dictate.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

What a tosser, but interesting vid non the less.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

www.twin-turbo.co.uk

If it helps the numbers, I think they are running about 3 bar of boost.
Plus as will mentioned, they have a 100kg fuel limit for the race. which given the maximum permitted fuel flow rate is 100kg/hour, means they won't make it too far at max power!
Given races are normally closer to 2 hours.
Also I don't think any of the teams are actually running the engines all the way up to 15k either, most top out around 12-13k as due to the flow rate issues there's no point in going further.

err 500 bar fuel pressure??? 7,251 PSI surly not? 5 bar 72 psi?

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Nope, 500bar sounds about right. Direct injection needs very high pressures. Most common rail diesel cars run similar pressures these days.

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Not so much informed into plenum dynamics, I was looking at that F1 plenum and was thinking that the orientation of the intake into the plenum would make the 'charge' favour the oposed runners because of high flow rate.

Obviously I am wrong but still interested if someone can explain.(?)

Dazed and Confused....

ahh of course

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Cheers Paul, I was thinking along that line.
Having such a big plenum must have a good 'buffering/equalising' effect..

Dazed and Confused....