smokey new engine
Turbo Mini Forums

Gents,

i wouldn't normally ask for help / advise unless i really had to…but seeing as you guys know your stuff i thought i would chuck something out there.

I have recently built the following engine
1275 a+ block, std bore, all mic'd up and very good, re-honed
1275 turbo pistons with total seal new rings
276 cam
worked head, bigger valves, new guides including exhaust stem seals swell as normal inlet ones.
all new bearings etc etc.
gt17 turbo, rebuilt all new seals/bearings

I have a friend with a rolling road, i though as i am almost ready for MOT i would take it to his to get it setup mixture and ignition wise and see what she runs like.

id already ran the engine in for a few hours at high idle, dropped the oil and put fresh in. All is good, no leaks etc.

when we got it on the rollers, it seemed to be running rich, the lambda was saying very rich and the engine was really smokey, we leaned it up, changed needles but it didn't really get better.

we wiped the plugs out and they were wet, not with fuel but with oil. just a light smear. we looked bit deeper and here was a think smear on the pistons.

i checked all the turbo hoses and they are spotlessly clean as new.

I have built lots of engines in the past and was very happy how this one went together and was expecting good things from it. MY only big question mark was the TOTAL SEAL RINGS.

my big question is, has any one used these. I wish now i went for an over bore and got some +20 omegas in there, but hey ho, I've got what I've got for now. I have done some reading and it appears the total seal rings do seem to add to oil consumption and there are lotus of cases of people saying they need to bed in, I am not a big believer in this but have never used these rings before.

any advise is welcome. other than, strip it down and get it re-bored.

should i run it for a while and see if it gets better, its literally only ran for a few hours

my thought is to get it stripped down and have a butchers.

We ran total seal rings on the van with no issues.

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

Form their web page

http://www.totalseal.com/Techpage.aspx

ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT

  Specifically engineered by Total Seal® to provide proper ring lubrication during initial break in. AL4’s clinging nature allows it to stay in place until the engine is placed in service. During initial start up it burns off quickly and cleanly leaving no residue. Used on it’s own or combine it with Quickseat® for the most advanced piston and ring assembly lubrication available helping to assure fast and complete ring seating.



Ring Seating
 

When first starting your engine to ensure proper ring seating, do not allow the engine to idle for long periods at a time. It is a good idea to mildly load the engine as soon as you can. Highway driving is a good way to properly seat the rings quickly. Do not idle the engine as idling does not break in any engine. Total Seal ® DOES NOT recommend the use of synthetic oils during break-in. After 2000-3000 miles on the street, or one night racing on the track, the rings should be adequately seated so that any oil you prefer can then be used.

 

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

I've been on their website and didn't bloody find that. cheers graham.

someone did advise to give it the beans for a while to get them bedded in.

now I've re-read the page i can easily see it. I think i was frantically flipping web pages looking for answers yesterday.

I think sprocket had a post on bedding them in... I can't find it.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

All the total seal rings i have baught have all come with fitting and bedding in instructiins in the box

Oh and totalseal suggest that if you cannot get hold of their assembly lubricant or quick seat products to use wd40 instead..

Why focus on the rings at this stage? I would want to know exactly what was done with this rebuilt engine since new rings in an old bore wont work in all cases unless you increase their chances

Thanks for the suggestion sprocket, this is not my first rodeo though. I have followed all instructions regarding building, ring gaps, honing etc.

Personally I have never had any luck with just changing rings.

So I dont do it anymore, just go the whole 9 yards ...New pistons/rings and a rebore

Jawd

Edited by Jawd on 31st Mar, 2014.

This thread almost exactly mirrors the one I posted some years ago and I got the same advice then - it works.

Tom Fentons comment was "stop fretting and get out there and drive it "

I did just that and had no more smoking.

And I don,t agree with Jawd as I have rescued many engines with new rings only.

Nice one Tadge. I have been advised by quite a few people saying, stop worrying and simply drive it. I am quite a detailed person and like to know how and why though. I have built and still build many many engines from minis to big V8,s making 600+BHP, so i don't like it when people do work when you don't have to, i.e. boring out and fitting larger pistons when if the block can be measured accurately and honed correctly and is within acceptable tolerances it is perfectly serviceable.

I must add thats its not smoking like a 200k diesel warrior. Its just a 10 a day smoker which is not what i was expecting from my fresh build.

Edited by mossy2a on 31st Mar, 2014.

Only my experience Tadge or I may have had other issues I suppose.

Jawd

Get the fuelling/timing sorted then go and give it some boot first.

If that fails take a look at your head first.

Much easier to take that off and take a look at that than tear down the engine.

You could have a baggy guide, lifted valve stem oil seal, cracked pushrod hole allowing oil to seep in.

If something is worth doing, it's worth doing half of.

are those pruduct actualy recomended by you guys that do fresh builds all the time?

im planing to use nothing but WD40 for pre start lube in my boors/rings
also have oil jets fitted so theirs a good chance it will get plenty of oil and maby smoke a touch first up i think

do you think that pouder stuff will do as it says and fill the vallys to seal the rings fast to stop oil burning or stick with my plan of dry and cleen slight spray with WD40 and roun with it ?

I contacted Total seal and i also visited lots of forums before hand where numerous people have used these rings on many different engines, new and old bores. The advise is as long as the bores are honed and sized correctly and the rings are fitted correctly you should be ok. There is a lot of people on many forums worrying about this topic and higher than normal oil consumption. I have contacted total seal again and they have said to simply use the engine, preferably under load at RPM 2.5K+

I'll say it again. What makes you think the smokey engine is as a result of the rings?

A freshly blown turbo seal will not neccesarily leave oil in the intake or exhaust, but there are a few signs; such as a black, almost tar-like gummy mess around the turbo core or downpipe.
I am also confident it is not the rings themselves. My money would be on the turbo, new seals or not...

there is an oily residue on the pistons.