Wet Manifold and Typhoon Assistance
Turbo Mini Forums

If there is a sensor return on the ECU, this is where it would go as this is the ground reference for the analog signals. If you don't have a sensor return, use the same ground location as the ECU.

http://www.jbperf.com/

If you have used SC's specific MPI loom it shows a connector (6 way econoseal) for lambda signal and ground.

Presumably that routes back to the correct VRef Ground on the main connector.

So if you hook up the controller signal outputs (even with the sensor off the car) to those connections with the SC ECU powered up (and the contoller 12V heater supply connected) and put your voltmeter across the specified pins you should see the result in the SC software and the voltmeter.

If you haven't got that specific loom, VRef ground is usually the ground wire for all other inputs that give a 5V signal, the most obvious being the GND of the TPS. That shows as pin 30 on the main connector but they also show pin 19 as another analogue ground and that is closer (physically) to the specified lambda input pin so might be better (in practice I suspect pins 30 and 19 are the same).
http://twinkam.co.uk/WebRoot/Store25/Shops..._V3_Diagram.pdf

If you have (or can borrow) an old analogue (moving needle) voltmeter rather than a (digital) DVM it will be a lot easier to see if the reading moves smoothly.

EDIT - typo and link added.

Edited by Rod S on 3rd May, 2016.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Thanks for the link. I do have an analogue meter some where.

I did not have time last night to try a test. My original idea was to exclude the SC wiring completely, both the controller adapter and the MPi loom and do a free-standing test on the bench with butane. I was going to power the heater from a battery and was just not sure how to connect the meter to the linear feed and ground from the Spartan2 controller.

I went back and forth on whether to use an SC standard loom and adapt it to my installation or an SC MPi loom and integrate the SC MPi loom into the MK I loom. I ended up going with the later which means I have a few extra connectors not in use.

If you're going to have the controller completely independent from the ECU and connected directly to the battery, use the battery negative for the signal ground connection. And measure between the analog signal and ground.

http://www.jbperf.com/

So the output from the controller measures 5 volts with either 4.9 sensor after 20 seconds or so and they come up to temperature. A pass from a butane soldering tool makes no movement. I did find my analog meter for this.

Have not heard back from either Innovate on the repair or SC.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "pass" or how much butane that tool puts out but with an unlit disposable butane lighter, I need to put the lighter on its highest setting almost touching the sensor and wait for many seconds to get a full rich reading. A simple pass or a lighter that is a bit too far or not exactly underneath the sensor results in no reading at all.

http://www.jbperf.com/

I agree with Jean, it does take a fair bit of butane close to, or directed at, the little holes in the sensor to swing the reading to fully rich. In their normal working environment the gas flow is quite significant.
But even if you can't swing it to fully rich (close to 0V in your scenario), if it is working you should be able to make the voltage drop noticeably.
Two things, did you try waiting a bit longer than 20secs? I have found that the 14point7 controllers I use take more like 30secs when the sensors are out of the car (ie, relying on their own internal heater without any help from hot exhaust gas) and did you have the voltmeter connected right from the start when you powered it up? - if so did the reading climb slowly up to 5V and stick there or was it immediately 5V?

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The output did climb slowly, almost in steps and then stayed at 5 volts.
The butane device I have is a mini torch with a removable soldering head. I did move it in and hold for 10-15 seconds and then move away.

I will do some more tests and be more consistent.

So with the butane source closer, I get some deflection from 5 to 4 maybe.
So it is very similar to what the SX-Tune software is showing.
https://youtu.be/VYPzVMMrTb4

I tested both the 4.9 sensors I have and both behave similarly, but I got the larger voltage drop on the one in the video.

Can you try with a vertical setup instead of horizontal? I've always had the sensor on top with the lighter on the bottom because I assume that the gas will go up and saturate the sensor.

http://www.jbperf.com/

Yes, I can do that. When I was doing it handheld the sensor was on top, but the butane source was moving. With both fixed in position, it will at least be consistent.

So butane is lighter and I seem to remember that propane is heavier.

The warm up sequence is correct as Alan responded to my email:
During the first 5 seconds of being powered on the linear output should read ~1.33v, the next 5 seconds should read 3.33v.
During powerup with the sensor connected, after about 2 minutes the sensor should be warm/hot, in free air the linear output should be max (5v)
After the sensor has been warmed up, the led output should be light indicating that the sensor is at proper temperature.
Regards, Alan To

I am not seeing an LED builtin to the body anywhere. I am guessing that the LED outputs are part of the harness and SC did not provide for them in the wiring adapter.

Retested today. It looks like both butane and propane are heavier than air, so the source is on the top.
I waited a full two minutes as Alan said that would allow for full warmup by the heater.

Same result pretty much. The 4.9 sensor that came from SC bounces a little. The unknown sensor that came with the Innovate upgrade cable is stuck at 5 volts.

SC had clipped the LED lead, so I uncovered it and the sensor appears to warm up after about 60 seconds.


https://youtu.be/EiKEiiVOpN8

At one time I thought I saw a part number for the Bosch 4.9 sensor for the Spartan 2 controller that came with the 4.9 style connector. I was going to see if I could find a sensor locally with the correct connector

It looks like this is the number: Bosch 17025
LSU 4.9

5 Wire Wideband Oxygen Sensor
Bosch OE # 0 258 017 025 ( 0258017025 )
Motec # 57006

Not available locally, but lots online, but that is how I got the no name sensor. The online catalog said Bosch, but when it arrived no markings on it. The vendor claimed that is how the Bosch versions come...

Edited by tmsmini on 7th May, 2016.

Try contacting Bosch and ask them if they sell their probes completely unmarked. They might be interested to know if there are people selling inferior products under the Bosch name.

I am more concerned with getting a tool that will help me monitor the AFR on the car at the moment.
But it is a concern. I tried finding a way to get Bosch info in the US and never got a response. I was looking for an alternative fuel pump option.

I have had responses from both Alan at 14point7 and Felipe at Innovate.
It is nice to have responses from vendors and my purchase from 14point7 was indirect, but he still responded.

My LM-2 is on its way back to me. We will see if it works as advertised.
I think I would like to add the LED for Spartan2 permanently, but I have not come up with a good way to integrate into the existing adapter or loom.
Terry

Just FYI for anyone with a Typhoons or other SC ECU...
SC appears to have split the company into two divisions or at least has a new website:
http://www.scs-delta.co.uk/

http://www.scs-delta.co.uk/

And a new version of the SX Tune software
http://www.scs-delta.co.uk/#!software/ew5t8

EDIT: Now I am not sure about this change as none of the Mini ECUs are listed on the new site...

Edited by tmsmini on 20th May, 2016.

^^^ interesting,
Looks like some sort of a split as scs-delta list Specialist Components as one of their suppliers and both the original SC websites still exist. The locations aren't the same but are quite close.

Re. the wideband issues, since being back in the country I have found the two "dead" LSUs that Graham T had sent me a while ago and we have exchanged emails to verify who had what when and what happened.
As a quick summary, there are three in total that stopped working on the new Innovate controllers, one is now working in Graham's car on a 14point7 controller (he currently has Jean's new setup - which I mentioned a while ago in another thread - under test) and I have tested the other two, using 14point7 controllers again but just on butane at the moment, and one works fine, the other works but is very slow.
Later this week I'll swap them with the ones in my Mini and see how well they perform there.
The 14point7 controllers are not the model you have been supplied with and I don't know what difference that could/would make and, although I've read before about Innovate controllers reporting LSUs as dead when they aren't, I have always been sceptical until seeing it for myself.


With regards to markings, the two "dead" ones I have here - which were supplied with the Innovate controllers - have no visible markings.
The other very noticeable difference to the ones currently in the car is the length of the cable, the Innovate supplied ones are much longer.
Whether they have markings or not and how that relates to "genuine" is also unknown. I doubt Bosch make them all in one place.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

I got my Innovate LM-2 back and after a frustrating afternoon of trying to make it work with the tailpipe clamp and various 4.9 sensors, I gave up and connected the unbranded Innovate sensors in the Maniflow LCB.
So at least now I have some AFR reading to look at.


Still dealing with SX-Tune. I do not see a lot new with the most recent version of SX-Tune, but a new issue seems to be that when you make an adjustment to a cell, that change does not immediately stick. Then a minute or so later, the cell updates. I am not sure if it is the software interface or the ECU itself. It does seem to try to adjust the CAN bus bandwidth through the serial port whne starting SX-Tune.

So I can see the inner and outer cylinders vary .05 to .09 lambda. Nothing new there...

So I am probably at the hair pulling stage as it seems the car is running OK, but dies at stop signs always when cold and sometimes when warm. Frustrating to have a rebuilt car with a new engine and not be able to drive it daily.

I need to figure out the next steps.

Sounds familiar... Can't help with a fix.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

I appreciate your comments Graham
A fool and his money are soon parted and I am playing the role of the fool this time around.

In your case, I'm struggling to understand why SC don't have a map for your car.

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Let me recap.
Initially we could not get the car to run on the MAP initially supplied by SC. Eventually we were able to get it to run, but not well. It was taken to a tuner with experience with the Typhoon. It ran better but still had issues.

I reached out to Simon at SC and he supplied a MAP that worked and was closer to what the engine needed. He actually connected remotely and made some adjustments. The car still had the cold running issue. I discovered a couple of issues, bent valve, perhaps too high of output pump and resolved those problems.

The car does run well at times, but could use some fine tuning and resolution of the dying at stop signs.

The LM-2 does have a version with two sensors which is what I have. Now that the Innovate appears to be working, I can take a look to see what is happening as I approach the stop signs.

The Typhoon has limited logging. You can record the "gauges" pages as a CSV, save it and then play it back. That is why I would like to have the lambda signal recorded in SX-Tune. Trying to correlate the separate information from the Innovate and the Typhoon was not working for me, but I was using the Innovate inductive clamp.

The lack of idle air adjustment seems to be an obstacle. The original machined throttle body had a provision for a fast idle cable that was done away with when the cast TB was made available.

thanks for listening...
Edit: so that was my question to SC some time back, what is so different about my engine that it is not running as well as others have indicated. There could still be an issue with fuel delivery or pressure as we modified an LWB tank for an internal pump, even though I tested the pressure.

Edited by tmsmini on 24th May, 2016.

How many inputs does the Typhoon have for AFRs (or any 0-5V analogue signal if it comes to it).

Presumably the LM-2 has standard 0-5V analogue outputs.

If the Typhoon software saves as a csv file you might be able to "play" it in MLV (just change the file suffix) as the megasquirt files are fairly basic csv.

EDIT - or you can change the format of the csv file in any spreadsheet programme so MLV will play it.

Edited by Rod S on 24th May, 2016.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???