Another Wont Start
Turbo Mini Forums

So gents I'm losing my mind.

Got back from some family crap today and thought i would take 15 to try see if she would fire up.

After sputtering and almost starting i gave up. She just wouldn't get past the initial cycle to get to idling.

I got the lady to spray WD in the plenum to help (albeit she seems to have sprayed hell outta it rather than bursts)

The pistons seemed to have fuel puddles in them from what i could see looking down the spark plug holes, not much but enough! and the plenum seems to have liquid in it that could be petrol but hard to say what with the ladies attempt to fill it with WD40.

Things i have done
- checked spark plugs and i have spark, they were soaked mind.
- Spark plugs on matched to the correct numbers 1 to the water pump side then 2 etc etc going left.
- fuel pressure is 3 psi into the carb
- the missing tooth is 90 deg before the pick up, assuming it turns anti clockwise.
- timing on the camshaft is @108 deg at full lift on number one inlet. i cannot imagine Lee getting this wrong.

i haven't changed anything on the carb other than a lil service on the seals since not using it when i took the car off the road from running the t2.

I've done some searches and some people say it could be over fuelling but I'm dumfounded.

any assistance gratefully appreciated.

Edited by t@z on 11th Jun, 2017.

Have you set the jet height ?

Phil.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM

Sounds like the needle valve sticking with some shit in it causing the carb over fill and pump too much fuel up through the jet then down into the chambers.
It's just happened to my car, also had to change the oil due to fuel passing past the rings.
Fixed and running mint and ready for mallory this Friday. 😃.

Roy B

The easiest way to see if the needle valve is seating properly, is to take the dashpot off & turn the fuel pump on. If fuel comes up the jet it's not seating properly.

Phil.,

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM

tbh phil i just put the jet back it and didnt set anything :/

roy, i've had the carb appart to clean. can you be more specific SU's are not my thing.

thanks T

also phil random one the seal on the throttle cable side on the butterfly spindle with no washer popped out. is that norma?l

I would definitely try what Phil says, take off the dashpot so you can see the jet,then turn the pump on. If you get a nice little fountain or even a small trickle out of the jet then it's over filling the pot at the bottom of the carb due to a the float not adjusted right or debris in the needle that let's the fuel through. I would say it a fairly common problem.
Also with the dashpot off you can see if the jet isn't too low causing it to run very rich.

I would definitely try what Phil says, take off the dashpot so you can see the jet,then turn the pump on. If you get a nice little fountain or even a small trickle out of the jet then it's over filling the pot at the bottom of the carb due to a the float not adjusted right or debris in the needle that let's the fuel through. I would say it a fairly common problem.
Also with the dashpot off you can see if the jet isn't too low causing it to run very rich.

If the plugs have been drowned, throw them in the bin.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

so i couldnt sleep this morning as the car was just bugging the hell outta me. So after trying to fight the urge i finally got up and wondered down the garage at dam 4:30am...

took off the dashpot and well inside the carb was oily as fuck which isnt helping i can assume. probably more WD40 soaking thanks to my young ladies "drenching"

below is a piccy with the pump running and pressure its seeing. no fountain so i am guessing this is good news.




I did notice that when i took the dash pot off the bit that moves with the needle was super heavy to the point off not impossible but way more harder than i ever remember it being and i do wonder if that is not helping. I am using engine oil as i read on here that's what people use. However this was everywhere so maybe i overfilled it a bit and the went on the edged off where the spring sits and sealed it stopping it from falling.

The pulley is the correct Rod i checked that too. It is 90 degs after the pickup sorry on the clockwise motion. i just got my rotation and before/afters mixed up.

i also checked the wiring on the coil as i was a bit concerned maybe this could be wrong.

I left it with the battery on charge, grab some plugs later on the way home and clean everything up, try some thinner oil in the dashpot.

Thanks gents for your help so far. anything else you can think off as always gratefully appreciated.

T

T@z, whats changed? Have you rebuilt the engine or has it just been stood?

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/

Edited by t@z on 12th Jun, 2017.

Although you say same trigger pulley and pickup, and accepting the clockwise/anti-clockwise thing, have you put a timing light on the pulley.

You say you were getting a spark so a standard timing light should work. If it's MJ, crank it with the MJ unplugged and the EDIS unit should give a constant 10 degrees if pulley/sensor are correct.

If a timing light shows that is OK, as a final long shot, try swapping the HT leads from the 1 / 4 side of the coilpack over to the 2 / 3 side (and vice versa) just in case the wiring to the low voltage side has got accidentally reversed (the timing light won't show the difference, only physically swapping the HT leads to the "wrong" positions will).

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Like Rod says, its sounds like Ignition if your pistons are piss wet through in fuel.

If your sure the Ignition is ok, Try cutting out the fuel pump, making sure the Carb is empty then spray some Easy Start into carb and see if it starts and idles for a few secs. Then go from there.

I had similar issues on mine once when I have a split carb float.

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/

so another evening in the garage investigating.

carb is cleaned. made a lil bush to sit on the spindle to hold the seal in better.

also looking into the timing suggestions. i realised that the timing case is different which also means the pick up has moved. not by much but i think that rather than being tooth 9 @90 degrees its tooth 8 @xx degrees.

lee is coming over weds with a dti gauge and we are going to set tdc and i'm gonna look i to the nodiz software for an adjustment. if not. new pulley :/

will keep you posted

I had been assuming it was MJ rather than "nodiz" so my "unplug the EDIS and see if it's 10 degrees" won't work....

But, knowing where some of the code came from, it's probably got the ability to match the actual trigger position in the software.

Be careful of the physical trigger being too far out though, especially if it's much less than 90 degrees as the processor needs time to calculate the spark so you only have the time between the actual trigger BTDC and the most advanced spark BTDC in your chosen map.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

no problem rod i thought as much :)

There is an adjustment modify it but i cannot test this offline and i need to be at the car as the offfsets are actual buttons on the device from the manual from what it reads like. However I think the missing tooth is about 60-70 degs not the 90 and as the limit is 20 i think im screwed regardless.

I have ordered a new trigger that can attach to the pulley (its removable) to re cut the tooth position when i get Lees DTI gauge and timing light then i can faff around with the software once i know everything is in order.

The map i am using is the one from the old MJ from the T2 set up i used before. Not saying this is perfect but should give me a good basis to start from at least as that ran perfect.

Im just more frustrated that it skipped my mind that the sensor mount and timing cover are all different. I suppose it the curse off taking so bloody long to build the thing. It was Mike that got me thinking what had changed that made me double check everything from pictures off the old engine.

Edited by t@z on 13th Jun, 2017.

So just a bit off an update.

Lee come over and i got the new pulley. Set TDC using the DTI and marked the shit out off it. Cut the tooth out 90 degrees before TDC as per the norm (90 degs after the sensor).

After Lee checking everything on the carb etc seemed ok and it was getting fuel we still proceeded to get nothing just puffs and wiffs off it wanting to fire just not being able to keep going.

We checked the timing with a gun and seemed massively out but this could also be wasted spark duplication doubling numbers etc but either way it was out.

I called Nodiz today as i am certain this is a software related issue now as i just dont get how everything is where it should be and im getting sweet FA.

Apparently the Nodiz comes with a default offset off 90degs. Nodiz said that i may have changed that by accidentally knocking the buttons on the Nodiz unit which could happen but thinking about it now i would assume that this can only be changed when the unit has power and it has only really just sat under the dash.

Anyway im baffled but its more frustrating that i cannot even tell the offset as its a pretty old unit and the v1 version off the software is pretty basic

For now i need to get the car sorted to move so i cannot probably look at the issue further until next week annoyingly.

But wanted to update you all on some progress even if not the right way ish

T

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Right gents i havent forgotten about your help or been ignoring it. Just been a tad busy and things have taken forever!

So i created this thread on the nodiz forum in the hope for help. I am getting somewhere but its just slow, that is not all their fault mind as i said i struggle to work on the car at the moment.

The thread can be found here.

https://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/forum/....php?f=12&t=886

I will just update stuff with where i am at now but i am generally im losing the plot for sure

For reference i am using a "Draper 52616 Xenon" timing light

Anyway
this is the map i created to get a 0 reading


The first video is just to test everything is in the right place as advised after swapping the coil wires back.

1st Conditions were
- No plugs in block
- HT leads 2-4 connected @coil but have no plugs in them
- HT lead 1 has plug in it.

RESULT
Vid: https://youtu.be/H_H8Z9WTg-s

2nd Conditions were
- No plugs in block
- HT leads 1-4 connected @coil all have plugs in

RESULT
Vid 1: https://youtu.be/m02rfhpqmTw
Vid 2: https://youtu.be/hgHzt38X53o

Now im not sure what is doing on. For some reason when i have all the plugs in the spark goes out off sync. I mean it does a little with just 1 but 90% off the time its ok with the 1. no where near as bad with all 4 in.

Is there some voodoo resistances working here or are my leads a bit duff? Im using the exact earths and switched live i used for the Megajolt so i do not think that is an issue.

First thing to bear in mind is how wasted spark works, not just because it can confuse a lot of timing lights, but also the way the HT current flows when testing things not in their usual configuration like plugs out of the engine.

Basically there are only two coils, not four, and the HT flows out of spout 1, across No1 plug gap, into the head, across No4 plug gap, and back to the other end of the coil, spout 4.
The same happens at the other side of the coilpack with spouts 2&3 and plugs 2&3.
If you don't have the plugs in the head, or on some solid metal surface, the HT goes anywhere it can to try and make that circuit complete, even through air or anything metal nearby.

So, yes, it can be "Voodoo" if the plugs are out of the block.

And random HT can lead to a second problem.
HT going everywhere is a certain recipe to mess up the VR signal, even with a screened cable (it can mess up the power supply to the ECU as well as the VR signal).
This generally means the ECU (whatever make) cannot properly count the 36:1 teeth so doesn't really know where the missing one is.

Does the Nodiz not have any sort of "synch" indicator in the software/display to say it has synched up and is reading the RPM/crank position OK ???

On a Megasquirt, for example, there is a red/green synch indicator on all the TunerStudio display screens that tells you (plus other diagnostic software as well).

What I see in the Youtube video looks like random firing from a badly (or non) synched crank signal.

Edited by Rod S on 21st Jul, 2017.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

WD dosent burn does it?

Hi Rod

Thanks for the reply. Interesting read never really knew about any off that.

One thing i remembered whilst i was in the shower yesterday was that i actually don't have it wired as i had the megajolt. The megajolt switched live was from the fusebox & the coil pack from from coil switch feed. In its current state i have all the switched lives from the original coil switched feed from the front off the car (ECU & Coil Pack).

From reading your above comment and after a call i gave the Nodiz bods yesterday they seem to wonder that because its all on the same feed maybe the coil is messing up power signal to the Nodiz and causing it to reset.

All the wires are heat shrunk together going around the drivers wing so there could be a cause for signal weirdness.

The Nodiz mind does have a sync loss signal reading on the software and this measures if there is any degeneration off the signal from the VR sensor. My understanding is that if this keeps rising that the signal is crap. Mine seems to be stable with a reading off around 3 last time i checked. The Nodiz support seemed to think this was perfect.

What i will do is change the wiring around (live to fusebox and putt the VR sensor wires out, annoying as all tidy) and try again as i think this is just going to be the case where i do bit by bit.

Joe... its not flammable persey but can carry a flame so it is considered flammable. TBH i never really thought about it just assumed it was as is in a can