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MikeRace

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Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Right then,

I finally jumped back into working on the Mini Last night.

Ive gotten my Vauxhall 1.6 8v Running on MicroSquirt.

Its running 60-2 Trigger Wheel through a Bosch Driver. Everything else is pretty much as should be with a MS.

Injectors are wired as Channel 1 to Injector 1 and 3 and Channel 2 to Injectors 2 and 4.

3 Bar Map Sensor, Innovative Wide Band, and Standard TPS

The car will fire up. But when applying throttle it dies off and Back Fires!

Im wondering if I have some Parameters wrong in my setup?

Robert and Brett have been kindly helping me out but dont wanna pester them too much so just wondered if anyone can point me in the right Direction?

Thanks






1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

As you say you are running a MAP sensor, and the control algorithm is set to "speed density" (which is what I would expect with a MAP sensor) then "Multiply by MAP (caution)" should be set to multiply.
Also your toothed wheel setting of 132 degrees is a bit strange - have you actually strobed it with a timing light, normally the missing tooth (or teeth) should be around 90 degrees for a 4 cylinder engine.
Finally, your VE table just looks strange (but I'm used to siamese code ones so I can't be sure) . Did you use the table generator in TS to create it or have you been changing it, either manually or by trying to run closed loop or something ?

But the main issue is multiply my MAP should be set to multiply if you are using a speed/density algorithm, it's only set no for an Alpha/n algorithm (TPS only, no MAP).

EDIT - typo on wheel setting degrees

Edited by Rod S on 5th Jul, 2017.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Thanks for the Reply Rod.

The toothed wheel is a strange one. I tried setting the timing at around 60ish but from memory it wouldnt start (however ill check this again and get the stobe on it)

Ill set the Multiply to Multiply as it were.

And my VE Table was one I pinched off the web from another Vauxhall engine so was literally just a starting point.

Once the engine is "running" ill have it set up properly.

Im going back in the garage tonight, so just want to be armed with as many Ideas a possible :)

Cheers

Mike


On 5th Jul, 2017 Rod S said:
As you say you are running a MAP sensor, and the control algorithm is set to "speed density" (which is what I would expect with a MAP sensor) then "Multiply by MAP (caution)" should be set to multiply.
Also your toothed wheel setting of 132 degrees is a bit strange - have you actually strobed it with a timing light, normally it should be around 60 degrees for a 4 cylinder engine.
Finally, your VE table just looks strange (but I'm used to siamese code ones so I can't be sure) . Did you use the table generator in TS to create it or have you been changing it, either manually or by trying to run closed loop or something ?

But the main issue is multiply my MAP should be set to multiply if you are using a speed/density algorithm, it's only set no for an Alpha/n algorithm (TPS only, no MAP).

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Rod S

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Mike, I made a typo on the missing tooth angle, it's normally 90 (not 60 like I first said) for a four cylinder engine.
But really you should just strobe it with a timing light to see exactly where the trigger wheel ended up, it will never be exactly what the manual said to install it as (mine ended up about 10 degrees out even though I measured it carefully before bolting it in place).

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Yeah, ill setup a Mark and get it strobed in.

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Sprocket

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Preston On The Brook

Injectors paired 1/3, 2/4 ?.................

I'd have thought it should be 1/4, 2/3...... same as wasted spark ignition

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


MikeRace

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Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

This also Caused me much confusion as well Colin.

Not that its difficult *hehe!*

But according to this Diagram?




On 5th Jul, 2017 Sprocket said:
Injectors paired 1/3, 2/4 ?.................

I'd have thought it should be 1/4, 2/3...... same as wasted spark ignition

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Yet this one tells a different Story??

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Ive also just found this quote in the Manual

"Note that MicroSquirt® and the injectors MUST be powered off the same relay (the 'main relay'). If the injectors are powered while MicroSquirt® controller is not, the injectors might be grounded and flood the engine with fuel"

Im sure I have run the Injectors off there own seperate Relay.

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Rod S

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For the relay(s) it's just a case of making sure the injectors get powered at the same time as the microsquirt. Usually it would be a single relay but if you have two, just make sure their operating coils are from the same wire on ignition switched so both relays act as one.

For the injector wiring sequence (numbers) you need to look at the table in the manual. There are quite a few options for non-sequential injection (or batch as it's often called). These options all vary with the number of cylinders, the number of squirts per cycle, and whether the two banks are "simultaneous" or "alternating".

With sequential (especially siamese) it's all pretty obvious but with all the non-sequential options it gets a lot more complicated, not because it's a crap system, but because it tries to cater for so many different engine variants from single cylinder up to V12 with so many variants inbetween.
If your initial setting is "simultaneous" and 2 squirts per cycle I "think" they all open together anyway, however you wire them, it's only once you increase the squirts per cycle or start alternating the banks that the wiring matters.

But I stress that is what I "think", the siamese (sequential) code is much more straightforward as it only covers injector(s) on siamesed runners so is much more implicit.

All the options for the batch setups should be in the manual, it's just that I'm not familiar with them so can't give a direct answer.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Sprocket

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Preston On The Brook

I'd have thought 'simultaneously' would also mean all injectors together at the same time, but I found out that it doesn't always mean that.

I'd be suspect of the VE table not having enough in it.

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Right a bit of an update.

I altered the Multiply to Multiply. It made a slight difference.

However I was leaning on the engine and then discovered a small breather pipe *Rofl!* "Massive Air Leak"

That blocked I then discovered that only 1 injector channel is firing. Spare ECU and it started working (so must have a fault on mine)

Using the new ECU the engine Ticked over (Very High) but nicely.

Upon blipping the throttle I get Ridiculous back firing. So tonight ill double check all the timing and watch the AFR's to see whats happening.

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

lol,

its worth reflashing the firmware in the ecu, i spent about 3 days trying to get my 7 port to run.... reflashed it asnd it sprang into life...

rather than blipping it feed the trottle in gently, bliping it will cause a sudden lean, which you need to adjust for outside of the VE table... so its get the VE table close then adjust ror enrichments and then warm up.

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Rod S

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Rural Suffolk

As Joe says, try opening the throttle slowly. To get the fast throttle response right (blipping it or fast acceleration) is a whole load of other settings under the "Accel Enrich" tab in Tunerstudio but ignore that until the VE table is close to being correct.

As I said yesterday, and Colin said, your VE table doesn't look right. If the values are too low it won't rev and you will see AFRs go lean even if opening throttle slowly.

If you have the registered version of TS (TunerStudio) there is a good table generator that will give you a good starting point. It's not particularly obvious where to find it and if you have the "Lite" (ie, free) version of TS you don't get it along with many other useful tools.

If you haven't got the registered version just post up the following parameters and I'll see what the base table looks like and if it's wildly different to yours I'll email it over.

Engine size,
No. cylinders,
Inj flow (in cc/min if you're quoting engine size as cc's, not lbs/hour as some are sold)
stoich AFR (which is 14.7 for petrol so I already know that !)

Engine type (N/A, turbo, turbo with I/C, supercharged, supercharged with I/C)
Expected idle RPM,
Expected MAP at idle,
RPM redline,
Expected peak BHP and at what RPM and what expected MAP (ie, boost)
Expected peak torque and at what RPM and MAP.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Rod S

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Forgot to add, re. the failed injector channel on one unit,
I believe the microsquirts use the same surface mount MosFet that is found on the MS3X card and Jean's 4 channel driver boards. If so then there have been failures reported in the past on the other boards and I think they are now onto their third iteration of which precise one is best. It's all to do with the avalanche energy rating of the various versions of that MosFet and it seems some high z injectors can kill the earlier ones quite easily - not all high z injectors are the same..... The standard size MS2 uses through hole MosFets which are physically bigger and generally have higher ratings.
If the failed microsquirt is an earlier unit the MosFet would be my best guess as the cause and they are easy enough to replace despite being SMD devices.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


MikeRace

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Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Cheers fellas.

Trigger-Wheels.com have agreed to check it as i know its not me thats broken it. None of my wiring has changed and i havent buggered up the spare ecu using my loom.

It didnt back fire as much feeding it but blipping did cause back fire which near deafened me.

Rod ill post up the bits and pieces. Can you PM me your Email please buddy.

Much appreciated chaps *Clapping*

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Yet another update.

Plumed coolant in so all sorted on that front.

Engine now ticks over but still having Back Firing issues when feeding in the power, it gets to 3k and bang bang bang.

Also the manifold is glowing nearly see through at tick over! So my guess is the timing is not right. Problem is ive set piston 1 to TDC and then marked the pulley, and the timing gun says 0 degrees there abouts. So the ECU thinks its correct??


Im thinking maybe a clockwork dizzy is my next option, or doing what Roberto has done and making a 36-1 Pulley.

Thoughts please Gents

Ta

Mike

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Sprocket

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10932 Posts
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Preston On The Brook

Please expand one the following quote.... " the timing gun says 0 degrees there abouts"

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


MikeRace

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Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

Ive set the Piston to TDC, mark on the pulley with tipex and made a marker stick,

Set the timing on the ECU to Fixed timing and set it to 0 (to make sure my trigger offset is correct)

Fired up the engine and the marker is pretty much bang on the pulley with the timing light.


On 6th Jul, 2017 Sprocket said:
Please expand one the following quote.... " the timing gun says 0 degrees there abouts"

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


MikeRace

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6496 Posts
Member #: 1149
#1 Basshunter Fan

Force Racing ICT Dept Manager Miglia Turbo Am frum Yokshyer tha noes!

If that makes sense ?


On 6th Jul, 2017 Sprocket said:
Please expand one the following quote.... " the timing gun says 0 degrees there abouts"

Edited by MikeRace on 6th Jul, 2017.

1/4 Mile 14.3secs 96Mph Terminal 10psi of boost.


Fibreglass Parts? - http://www.tdkracing.co.uk/
Split Rims? - http://www.force-racing.co.uk/


Sprocket

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10932 Posts
Member #: 965
Post Whore

Preston On The Brook

Good lad *wink*

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


Sprocket

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Post Whore

Preston On The Brook

Next question........ where is your wideband?

I still think you need more fuel in the VE table. Acceleration enrichment probably need increasing also.

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


Joe C

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11951 Posts
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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

Yeah sounds like it might be well lean, change the req fuel which will scale the whole map, and go from there.

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

Mike,

From the very short log you emailed me, each time you revved it, as soon as it reached 3.5K RPM, there was a massive loss of synch, reason "2".

I can't remember what "2" is off the top of my head - I'll look it up in the morning - but it will be something to do with your trigger wheel.

That will be your massive backfire.

I can't figure out your AFR readings, what wideband do you have and how is it wired into the microsquirt to get logged (apart from the massive backfire where I see a lean jump (expected) it seems to be reading an almost constant 12.1 which can't be right (ie, it can't be a constant reading)).

If you give me the basic data I listed earlier I can see how close your VE table is, like Colin and Joe, I expect it is too lean.

But the loss of synch needs fixing first.

EDIT - typo

Edited by Rod S on 6th Jul, 2017.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Joe C

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11951 Posts
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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

Ah synch loss, does the Microsoft have the vr pots??

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all


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