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Home > Beginners Tech > Clutch - have I put it together wrongly?

Cooper1999

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Hi Guys. I've spent the last hour searching without luck, I'm hoping someone on here can help me with a clutch problem.
I built the (MPi) engine for my car a little while ago - it starts and runs/idles well. But now I'm at the stage of filling and bleeding the clutch I have a problem.
With the clutch bled the pedal is solid. I thought it might be a slave cylinder problem so swapped that with a pattern part I had, with the same result.


In the photo (taken from the RHF wheel arch) the nut on the shaft (at the bottom right) should 'stick out' from the clutch cover - on my mini it's about ~1/2". On pressing the clutch pedal, the rod (top left) extends, pivoting around and forcing the nut and shaft in, which disengages the clutch.
Now, while I can pull the shaft out (by using the mechanical advantage of the arm) it slowly but surely pulls itself in until the nut is sitting against the clutch cover.
Removing the slave cylinder I can pull the shaft freely back and forth:



Now should this shaft (with the cylinder out of the system) be pushed 'out' firmly, so that on pushing the clutch pedal the shaft is forced in to disengage?
As it is, the weight of the actuating arm & pin is enough to move the arm ever so slightly, the shaft is so free to move.

Sorry if this is a biff question, but with the car so close to being 'almost' finished I'll be gnashing my teeth a bit if I need to take the engine out again to correct this!

Cheers,


JT

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Hertfordshire

Looks like you need to loosen the throw out stop nut (2 big nuts lol)

Edited by JT on 31st Jul, 2017.

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Turbo This..

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Previously josh4444

Australia, brisbane

is it pre vert?
the drive straps may be ass over or if your as thick as me put two washers on the flywheel bolt.. ive done both but both i wont do again..


Rod S

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I'm going to assume it's Verto from the year and the operating arm/slave cylinder.

It's a bit hard to tell from the photos but it does look as if the throwout nuts are bottoming out - which would certainly explain the pedal being "solid" - however, the nuts look pretty much close to the ends of the threads already, certainly a lot further out than on either of my two.

So, is the release bearing actually on the end of the plunger (and is it the correct Verto one) and/or, is the top hat (which the release bearing pushes against) actually on the end of the crank ?

If the bits inside are missing or installed wrongly (or the wrong bit) the throwout nuts will just bottom out anyway.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

looks like either the end has snapped off the arm, or youve missed the top hat out of the assy,

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

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Tom Fenton
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Is the plunger 180 deg out of orientation to the release arm? I've made this mistake before now.


On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:


On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else


Like fuel 😂😂


Cooper1999

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Thanks for the suggestions guys.
It an MPI engine with a verto clutch. The big nuts are wound out to the point that the outer nut is flush with the end of the shaft - I'll take this outer nut off so I can wind the inner out a bit further and see what it feels like.
But it looks like its time to start stripping this down now then. There's a little more space in the MM than in a mini (less of an inner wing) so hopefully I'll be able to strip this in situ.

I'm now doubting my memory whether I put the top hat in or not - I don't reme,ber having any bits left over...


Rod S

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Be careful of winding the nuts back too far.
If everything else is good it will either push the slave cylinder piston to the end of its travel (can't remember if the verto one has a circlip to stop it jumping out) or just bend/break the ball end on the lever arm.
If the plunger is 180 out like Tom suggests you will have already bent/broken the ball end.
Pull the lever arm first in case it is broken/bent or the plunger the wrong way around then just take the WOK of and it'll be pretty obvious.
Get the WOK off and you can then see everything.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Cooper1999

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Thanks Rod. I've taken the clutch cover off but unfortunately there isn't enough room to get this totally out.
I'm not sure these photos will show much but this is what I found.
The top hat was in place. There was some sign of contact (shiny metal) as some point:


The release bearing moved in/out with the shaft as this was moved by hand. It was loose (wobbly) on the end of the shaft:

And this was the best view of the pressure plate that I could get:

Not sure if anyone can see anything obviously wrong (I haven't dismantled the arm yet to see if I've put that together wrong - it'll be difficult to do with the limited space available) but I'm hoping there is - I'll need to lift the body off (and disconnect everything I've connected up there past few weeks) otherwise :(

Thanks again.

Edited by Cooper1999 on 6th Aug, 2017.


Rod S

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On 6th Aug, 2017 Cooper1999 said:
It was loose (wobbly) on the end of the shaft:


Providing you mean the whole assembly as per your photo, that is fine because it is designed to self centre and align itself on the end of the top hat.

However the photo of that bit is very indistinct. There should be a four-legged attachment cage which I think I see intact but the actual bearing is inside that. The cage should not rotate (provided the release arm is fitted) it should only have a little bit of rotational movement as there is clearance between the operating arm and the hole in the plunger, but the arm stops it spinning. However, for the bearing itself you should be able to see the inner race which rotates freely inside the cage bit. This is where your photo isn't clear. That inner bit should be slightly above the retaining cage, spin freely and have a matching shiny mark to the end of the top hat (which it presses against).

If you can do this in situ, first remove the two throwout nuts completely, then remove the clevis pin and operating arm and the whole plunger will pull out inwards. Do not rotate it as you do so and then you will see if the correct end of the hole - the bit Tom was talking about - as you pull it out (the bigger end of the hole is what the operating arm should go into).
Then you can have a good look at the bearing.

EDIT - photo to follow in a minute

Edited by Rod S on 6th Aug, 2017.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Rod S

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Photo

Also, if you look here, although it only shows the rear view of the bearing assembly, it has a photo of the hole in the plunger showing which side the arm should enter.
http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/...k%20to%20search

In fact, looking again at your photo, and comparing it to the MiniSpares photo which is the reverse side of the bearing, I think you have your release bearing on backwards........


Attachments:

Edited by Rod S on 6th Aug, 2017.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Tom Fenton
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On 6th Aug, 2017 Rod S said:


In fact, looking again at your photo, and comparing it to the MiniSpares photo which is the reverse side of the bearing, I think you have your release bearing on backwards........


Agreed


On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:


On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else


Like fuel 😂😂


Cooper1999

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Thanks for the quick response guys - having looked at the car again this morning I'm sure with the aid of lots of swearing I'll be able to take the arm apart/swap the release bearing through 180 degrees.

If that's the only thing I've put together wrongly I'll be very happy. I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers All.


TurboDave16V
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If you haven't already, go ahead and notch the bottom four holes in the clutch cover to make it easier for next time!

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Who remembers this first time around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF0a5aoEGsw


Cooper1999

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Hi Dave - notching the clutch cover, can you explain this a bit more please? (No = I haven't done this)
Loosening off the wiring harness, removing the main engine fuse box and ecu out of the way has given me a bit more space to play with. Not enough to get the clutch cover out though, but enough to play with.
Taking the release lever out, I had put this in, in this orientation:

Is this wrong?
Digging out an old Haynes manual I came across this illustration:

This drawing isn't in the latest/last Haynes which covers the MPI, but this does seem to suggest I had put the arm in incorrectly. I offered up the arm turned through 180 degrees but this doesn't look right, the arm being hard up against the clutch cover and the shaft (with the lock nut) also being hard up against the cover:

I have turned the release bearing around - does this look better:


Thanks,


Rod S

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Release bearing is now correct.

The release arm should be as in your very first photo - that Haynes diagram is wrong.

All you should be looking for with the release arm is that it engages with the larger end of the big hole in the release plunger (which you probably had right originally anyway, I suspect this was all down to the release bearing being on backwards).

EDIT - Never trust Haynes, they get so many things wrong when things change and they never update the drawings correctly. Just put it back as your first photo but ensuring it goes into the larger end of the hole in the plunger (which it probably was anyway) and, with the release bearing the correct way around, all should be well.

Edited by Rod S on 6th Aug, 2017.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


theoneeyedlizard

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Dave means open up the bottom four holes in the wok so that they are slotted. Then you can just loosen the bolts and lift it out rather than having to completely remove the bolts.

In the 13's at last!.. Just


Cooper1999

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Ah - I see. That makes sense.
Something to consider when I've next got the engine out I think. While not impossible I'm not sure I'd like to do that with the clutch cover, through the wheel arch.

I should be able to look to put this back together this Sunday.

Cheers,


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

um but youve got that bit off already,

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Rod S

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On 9th Aug, 2017 Joe C said:
um but youve got that bit off already,

From an earlier comment Joe, I don't think it is out, just off but still trapped in the engine bay of the car (whatever an MM is)

On 5th Aug, 2017 Cooper1999 said:
But it looks like its time to start stripping this down now then. There's a little more space in the MM than in a mini (less of an inner wing) so hopefully I'll be able to strip this in situ.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

Ah, ok,

I'm assuming this is a Moke?

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Cooper1999

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Sorry, was being lazy. It's a Marcos - bonnet opening'so too small to get much out of (engine needs to go in from below).


Joe C

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Carlos Fandango

Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex

Cool! always wanted a marcos

On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged...

Joe, do you have a photo of your tool?



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1

http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/min...2006/?start=all



Cooper1999

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IT WORKS!!!
For the first time in 7 years of owernership I've driven my car!

Driven might be a bit far fetched - reversed it at idle out of the garage and back in, and felt it drag in 2nd, 3rd & 4th. But it WORKS!

Big smile
And big Thanks to all who've helped answer this latest problem (won't make that mistake again in a hurry).

The end might just really be in sight.



JT

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Hertfordshire

That looks nice. Lovely paint job!

My build thread..

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=542985

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