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| Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > EFI Testing - Dyno Day 6: 1.5:1 Ratio rockers | |||||||
 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
30th Dec, 2017 at 07:50:45am
Re. Karl's point, looking closely at the 12.5psi plots it is certainly strange that there is an inverse mirror of the IGN and AFRs.
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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 604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
30th Dec, 2017 at 09:00:30am
On 30th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
The other interesting aside is the AFRs produced by the SU carb. Not the charge robbing but how the AFRs continue downwards (get richer) once the MAF has flatlined. We know the MAF meters work, both ours have been on Robert's flowbench, and the airflow maxing out at 4800RPM is plausible as the increasing RPM is offset by falling boost pressure, but the fundamental way an SU works is the oil filled damper restricts the rate of rise of the piston as the engine accelerates and airflow increases, thus increasing the localised airflow over the jet itself increasing the "suction" above the fuel thus making the mixture richer. Then once the piston has reached equilibrium the localised airflow over the jet should be back to normal and mixture back to normal (as defined by the needle profile and spring rating). But your AFRs do the opposite, they don't richen up as the MAF rises fast but they do as soon as the MAF is steady. That makes me think Karl may have a point above about detonation (maybe not as extreme as detonation but the fuel not burning fully for some reason) or it may be back to my comment about the IGN curve. I think I can take a stab at answering this. The hi-boost Needle over ride feature was employed for the “12.5PSI run”. A fairly simple pull knob device retrofitted in the cockpit as part of the Carburettor conversion… As mentioned, Boost control duty for this run was set at 100%, which essentially should have been the same as disconnecting the signal pipe from the Waste Gate actuator. Over boost protection was set at 215Kpa (16.5PSI). So I’d assume the fact that the Choke was open meant that fuel was being poured in regardless of the piston/ needle position, hence why the AFR's continued to drop. This is possibly not the best example of the top power run we made. I’m currently producing a graph of the previous run, which was around the same boost, but only at 90% Boost control duty. I’ll also answer the rest of the comments in a while. Edited by Graham T on 30th Dec, 2017. ’77 Clubman build thread
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
30th Dec, 2017 at 09:29:13am
On 30th Dec, 2017 Graham T said:
So I’d assume the fact that the Choke was open meant that fuel was being poured in regardless of the piston/ needle position, hence why the AFR's continued to drop. In that case you would then be forcing down EGTs and hence turbine performance just at the same time as the wastegate was opening too far and too fast... On 30th Dec, 2017 Graham T said:
This is possibly not the best example of the top power run we made. I’m currently producing a graph of the previous run, which was around the same boost, but only at 90% Boost control duty. Good, that should be more representative. Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
30th Dec, 2017 at 09:40:31am
On 30th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
Looking at the pressure graph that includes exhaust pre-turbine all the curves suggest the wastegate (or the way it is controlled) is slow to start opening, then opening too far, too fast. Even the MS2 MAP reading, although a lot more ragged than Robert's damped one, has peaks and troughs that exactly match the turbine and compressor pressures. Thus my best guess is the control of the wastgate needs improving. That may be just a case of playing with the settings in MS2 or it may be some tweaking of the hardware is required (actuator spring and/or pre-load) or, more likely, the sizing of the orifices on the Amal valve (assuming you are still using that control valve). This is my take on why the power flattened out: The Waste Gate actuator has a 10PSI spring in it (forge Motorsport Green Spring). I only had 2.5mm preload set, which I have now increased to 4mm, but I’m just waiting to get out for a drive to see if it has had any effect. With the Waste gate actuator signal effectively open to atmosphere, the exhaust gas pressure has reached the point that it overcomes the waste gate spring and is dropping boost. Because there is no signal at all to the actuator, there is no damping on the waste gate which is exaggerating the fluttering.?? Also, to note, the waste gate actuator does cause a spike: testing with a syringe, it does not gracefully open, it moves with a “pop”, almost like it is sticking before opening. Of course that’s just my theory… ’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
30th Dec, 2017 at 09:41:49am
And yes, the boost controller duty cycle needs playing with, the intention will be to raise the duty cycle with RPM in order to try to smooth out the initial spike.
’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
30th Dec, 2017 at 09:58:56am
On 30th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
In fact the IGN curve around that area looks strange anyway, it looks like it has retarded too much as the boost (MAP as seen by the MS2) has peaked. Now that by itself may have been responsible for the mirror image AFR spikes (does fuel burn better or worse when you over-retard the ignition ?) but the first question would be, does that IGN plot actually match what you have in the MAP/RPM timing table or is there an external effect ? The plotted figures from my carb session seem to correctly represent what is in the IGN Advance table. Firstly, you can see from the graphs that there was a rogue figure in the IGN timing table at 2000RPM, around 100 – 120KPA, I’ve sorted that now. And yes, the Ignition figures are well retarded on my 211KPA line, right the way through the rev range. Those are the “safe” figures I had in from my original SRE 2015 RR session for the 16PSI run - 18Deg. That is 4deg less advance than the next line down, which is at 194KPA, but is more than I ran at the SRE Dyno session SRE Dyno session with Ign Adv trace: 
’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
30th Dec, 2017 at 10:38:07am
On 29th Dec, 2017 Doodmeister said:
Did you have any EGT sensors you could look at. Karl. I only have EGT sensors in the AFR sample chambers, but I think they give a good representation of the overall EGT Trend. Apparently though, the Inner EGT is not working. (a lose connector I have already mended once…) 
For comparison until I have all the data compiled for the previous run: 
’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
30th Dec, 2017 at 10:54:24am
On 29th Dec, 2017 Doodmeister said:
Yes Graham your correct you would see issues or noise on all the related sensors of the 5vref is unstable. From looking at the graphs it appears that the IGN is a direct inverse of the MAP after 4000rpm. Is the IGN being clipped/controlled by the MAP signal in the ECU ? Even the AFR's show some of the same peaks as the other signals so i'd have to think you have some what of a noise issue. Karl. Karl, the Ignition is not being clip that I am aware of. Traction control was disabled, Over boost protection was at 215KPA and soft rev limiter set to 6400RPM, and you can see the rev limiter taking effect at the very end of both the 8.2PSI and 11PSI runs. I think there is a noise issue, but specifically on the MAF sensor. I’m just about to start investigating that. I have had a lot of noise issues in the past, mainly down to the HT leads, but I think I mostly cured that. But I’m thinking would the AFR’s have peaks like the other traces? If Boost is bouncing and affecting IGN advance for example, presumable there would be a knock on effect on AFR’s? ’77 Clubman build thread
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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
30th Dec, 2017 at 05:04:46pm
Peak VE/torque at 4800 rpm is pretty respectable. 160hp on 12.5 psi is also OK.
On 30th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
But the main thing I'm seeing is that MAF is almost completely flat from 4800RPM onwards, even falling slightly. So, although that explains why power also remains flat, what is the fundamental reason ? Edited by Paul S on 30th Dec, 2017. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
31st Dec, 2017 at 09:53:11am
Pictures re-added to the remote turbo Manifold thread.
’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
31st Dec, 2017 at 11:59:10am
Here is the last set of Dyno Data for the Carb Dyno Session. This run was at 90% boost duty.
’77 Clubman build thread
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 12307 Posts Member #: 565 Carlos Fandango Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex |
31st Dec, 2017 at 12:06:36pm
Interesting stuff,
On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged... Joe, do you have a photo of your tool? http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1 https://joe1977.imgbb.com/ |
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
31st Dec, 2017 at 01:08:18pm
I thought there was a little trace thing in MLV when the tuning console was open, but I cannot see it, otherwise that would have been easier.
’77 Clubman build thread
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12307 Posts Member #: 565 Carlos Fandango Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex |
31st Dec, 2017 at 01:58:34pm
I thought there was too, under show tuning console or somthing, but its years since ive actualy used MLV,
On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged... Joe, do you have a photo of your tool? http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1 https://joe1977.imgbb.com/ |
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 6743 Posts Member #: 828 Post Whore uranus |
31st Dec, 2017 at 04:27:45pm
graham have you added that .34 psi boost offset to the innovate ? that would bring it closer to the post ic .
Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
31st Dec, 2017 at 04:57:53pm
You mentioned boost controller ^^, plus you said that you were taking all signals off the same tapping.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
1st Jan, 2018 at 09:38:35am
Re. your comment (much earlier in the thread) about MAP,
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
1st Jan, 2018 at 10:22:26am
On 1st Jan, 2018 Rod S said:
I've seen something else missing in our earlier (modified) version of the firmware. The ability to actually choose the MAP strategy. It seems later versions allow the selection of a time based window or an average. We seem to be limited to a time based window and the default setting is NOT the same as the newer code versions. On 31st Dec, 2017 robert said:
did you find the map signal window filter i mentioned ? i think it was set at 10 degree , try it at maximum, i guess 360 degree ? Yes, there are a few options missing from the earlier code we are using. From what I read, most of those new options were back ported from the MS3 code. Apparently they also changed the MAP sample angle to 40 Deg in some releases and 45 Deg in others. Basically to do with the compatibility with 8 cylinder engines. I think for the 4 cylinder engine they recommend 90 Deg sample angle and 10 Deg window with only 1 sample event per firing event as a base point. From there the MAP sample angle should be set to a point just before the inlet valve closes. I have to re-read the MS2 forums threads that I found to completely understand. What I do find slightly confusing is what this MAP sample angle actually does, or how… If you turn the ignition on to power everything up, but do not actually start up, you can still take a data log of MAP signal, with any changes in pressure that you put into the MAP, so is the sampling angle only actually for the ECU to pick 1 data set per ignition event to set any parameters that are MAP dependent? That would mean that regardless of what you change those setting to you will still see the same signal in the dash and in the logs, so it is just possibly a difference on which part the MS2 actually uses it for computation rather than what we see?? Regardless, I will have a play with the settings on a running engine and get some results of so description. ’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
1st Jan, 2018 at 10:49:46am
On 31st Dec, 2017 Paul S said:
You mentioned boost controller ^^, plus you said that you were taking all signals off the same tapping. If you boost controller works by dumping boost, then it will be flowing and if the line is small, then it will affect the readings to the ECU and Innovate. Your MAP reading looks OK until the boost controller comes in. What inlet manifold and cam are you using? I still think that things are not working in harmony.You've changed the inlet and turbo manifolds since the SRE runs and it's hit VE at the top end. Actually I had this slightly wrong earlier in the post. On 27th Dec, 2017 Graham T said:
I have two pressure tapings in the manifold: one is actually what would normally be the brake servo take off, this was going to the ECU The other is about 30mm off centre towards No4 cylinder, this is the signal for the Dump Valve and also where the Innovate was getting its signal. I’m not exactly sure now at what point we changed it during the session, I think after the 8PSI run, but we blocked off the centre tapping and Tee’d the ECU and Dump valve/Innovate off of the same tapping to eliminate any potential differences that there might have been. The MS2 and innovate signal came from the tapping 30mm off centre, then the DV signal was moved to the center (brake servo) tapping. The Boost controller/ actuator signal was in the turbo compressor housing tapping. The inlet manifold is a standard Metro Turbo Manifold, with a HIF44 N/A carb and a standard Metro Turbo Plenum on the back. The only modifications were welding the Plenum poppet valve hole closed and changing the angle of the gonzo nose to meet my existing pipe work. Cam is an SW5-07b. On 31st Dec, 2017 robert said:
graham have you added that .34 psi boost offset to the innovate ? that would bring it closer to the post ic . Ugh – no, at least I think not. I will check it all and redo where necessary. On 31st Dec, 2017 robert said:
re springs , they are only that poundage if installed at the right height ? Ooh, cannot answer that one – I never installed them (as he now starts frantically searching for what and how to check) On 31st Dec, 2017 robert said:
if you graph the 4 psi run ,then lay the 100% run on top , but instead of having it as it is , take the 100% run highest boost point ,work out the percentage increase over the 4 psi run at that point ,and then add that percentage to the rest of the 4 psi run, it will give a truer figure to represent the 100% run at the max boost it hit ,so removing the effect of the boost dropping .see what you get . I will work on that, should be interesting. On 31st Dec, 2017 robert said:
the waste gate arm should be smooth and disconnected from the cannister flop back and forward easily , with the cannister on it should snap back to a firm stop ,as the round disc hits the housing . Yes, the Wastegate arm is all good, free and smooth. The only issue I had was having to grind a little of the Turbine housing out where the downpipe fits, because with the turbine housing essentially upside down to how it would normally be mounted, the wastegate arm drops a little in its bushing and the actual disc was binding with the casting. It’s the actual actuators which seem to “pop” when they initially open, once they have cracked open they then operate smoothly, that is the same for the forge motorsport and the other 2 “OEM” actuators I have. This was tested off the car, with my trusty syringe. ’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
1st Jan, 2018 at 10:52:29am
On 31st Dec, 2017 Joe C said:
also possibly worth a try is to pull the Map feed to the MS while the engines idling to see if it changes the noise, might need to frig it with a syringe to get it to run though, basicaly to see if its electrical noise or not. I will add this to the tests to carry out. At the moment I have the rad off and rocker cover removed – I’ve been measuring the lift on the CAM. ’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
2nd Jan, 2018 at 12:18:31pm
Having had a bit more time to look at your data, a few general observations:
Edited by Paul S on 2nd Jan, 2018. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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12307 Posts Member #: 565 Carlos Fandango Burnham-on-Crouch, Essex |
2nd Jan, 2018 at 03:06:43pm
I'd love to see one of these tried.
On 28th Aug, 2011 Kean said:
At the risk of being sigged... Joe, do you have a photo of your tool? http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...9064&lastpost=1 https://joe1977.imgbb.com/ |
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
3rd Jan, 2018 at 08:41:12am
Here are all the Carb run torque figures for comparison, I've also added the SRE Dyno run, though it’s not such a good comparison because I had much more boost lower down at that point.
’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
3rd Jan, 2018 at 10:01:44am
A good comparison would be the VE curve you did ^^^. It will factor MAP out of the equation.
Edited by Paul S on 3rd Jan, 2018. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
3rd Jan, 2018 at 10:24:45am
IIRC, "day 1" was on injection but with the standard MPI manifold, limited to low boost as it didn't have the staged injection bosses added.
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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