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Home > Help Needed / General Tech Chat > Please help before I set fire to my car!

Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

Hi all, here to tap into your collective wealth of knowledge. I have a few problems which may or may not be related, I'm drawing a bit of a blank on

1) boost, lack of it. Raises to 2psi on the gauge then no more, this is either giving it a big rev while stationary or working the engine, uphill. Gauge is a vacuum/boost gauge, shows vacuum OK when running, and I can make it show full 'boost' with an airline. Dump valves dumps when throttle shuts. Turbo is good i can spin the impellor by hand. The actuator can be seen to move the waste-gate arm slightly by giving the engine a hard rev, so wastegate presumed OK (I.e not stuck open) Or should it not be moving it until it's under proper load, I.e weak actuator?

2)fuel pressure. I am running a metro turbo pump with sytec filters fore and aft, with the regulator set at 5psi at idle. It only creeps up a little with boost, but i think this is due to the previous query about not making much boost. Reg is a new Malpassi as per o.e. and 5/16"/8mm flow, 10mm return hoses. With the pump running, fuel would escape from the breather tail next to the fuel-in tail on the carb. (Or it would if it wasn't blanked off.) Is my fuel pressure too high and do I need to install a pressure switch to knock the pump off when it reaches desired pressure? Or is fuel pressure ok and its just a case of the float valve not shutting properly?

3)which may be related to 2...the car will idle all day long, will rev cleanly, and drive well (albeit with little boost showing) for the first two to four minutes say. It will then cough and die with what feels like fuel starvation, or a similar feeling to it having and air leak, but it will only do it after a bit of driving. Im going to swap the coil just to eliminate it, because im kind of clutching at straws a bit now. The only other thing is where I've put the fuel lines, across the bulkhead behind the carb/plenum, (it's a Metro...) are they likely to be getting heat soak from the turbo? They are stainless braided, and the turbo has a heat-blanket on, could they still be getting too hot and vapourising the fuel?

What is more annoying is the engine was bought having been run and driven in a mini based buggy, where it went like holy-hell and made around 12psi. It was, and is intercooled, I've just piped it to fit my application. The fuel pump and pressure reg are the same parts, again plumbed to fit my application. It's a 1380 with a T3, a dialled in Avonbar Phase 2 cam, head work etc etc all as it was when it was in the other car.

Sorry for such an essay, I'll stick a bob or two in the funds pot!

Edited by Ben5004 on 13th May, 2018.


Nic

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9233 Posts
Member #: 59
First mini turbo to get in the 12's & site perv

Herefordshire

Do you have the correct preload on the actuator?
Or a boost leak somewhere? I used to have an inter cooler where the cap was coming away and it wouldnít go above 5psi

Set the fuel pressure to 3psi at idle

That may fix no 3, or it could be that your float valve needs replacing.

Possibly a few niggly issues here, do you know it was definitely running ok before?

On 20th Jan, 2010 kal14 said:

grow up you fool .


Steve220

50 Posts
Member #: 11017
Advanced Member

Shropshire

Sounds like a lack of preload if the actuator is opening with stationary revving


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

To the best of my knowledge there isnt a boost leak, intercooler is new, pipework new ally hard pipes, it has proper boost clamps around new silicone joiners. I can't hear any sounds of escaping boost pressure, I'd expect to hear or feel some sort of whooshing or hissing from somewhere even with just the 2psi
The actuator is set up so that when you unhook the rod from the wastegate arm, it pulls back so it's about half the hole short of the pin on the arm, if that makes sense.
Great, I'll tweak the f.p down a bit, my hope is as you say it might sort issue 3.
For certain it was running well, I actually went out in the vehicle the engine came from before it was removed, which was a big decider in going for this engine, knowing it was proven and shouldn't have any niggles 😂

Edited by Ben5004 on 13th May, 2018.


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

It's preloaded Steve220, could it just be weak?


TurboDave16V
Forum Mod

10859 Posts
Member #: 17
***16***

SouthPark, Colorado

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=6298
Note the points about setting the FPR, and what it rises to by the time the boost gauge gets to zero.

I do recall the stock actuator is very weak, in that itís easy to pull it with your fingers.if thatís the case,you do need more pre-load. If you have a 14psi actuator (pliers needed to grip it to pull it), half a hole of pre-load should be enough to make a fair bit of boost.

You can also try a foot pump (and connect to the actuator directly). The readout on the pump gauge when the arm notably moves, is the approx pressure itíll hold boost at.

The coughing could be over fueling (from a lack of boost) just as easy as going lean, so follow the FAQ and pointer above about the actuator check, and report back.


Finally, donít despair. I think itís safe to say there is no problem that the collective on here hasnít seen and fixed. These are pretty simple systems as far as boosted cars go!

Edited by TurboDave16V on 14th May, 2018.

On 17th Nov, 2014 Tom Fenton said:
Sorry to say My Herpes are no better


Who remembers this first time around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF0a5aoEGsw


stevieturbo

3358 Posts
Member #: 655
Post Whore

Northern Ireland




On 13th May, 2018 Ben5004 said:
Hi all, here to tap into your collective wealth of knowledge. I have a few problems which may or may not be related, I'm drawing a bit of a blank on

1) boost, lack of it. Raises to 2psi on the gauge then no more, this is either giving it a big rev while stationary or working the engine, uphill. Gauge is a vacuum/boost gauge, shows vacuum OK when running, and I can make it show full 'boost' with an airline. Dump valves dumps when throttle shuts. Turbo is good i can spin the impellor by hand. The actuator can be seen to move the waste-gate arm slightly by giving the engine a hard rev, so wastegate presumed OK (I.e not stuck open) Or should it not be moving it until it's under proper load, I.e weak actuator?

2)fuel pressure. I am running a metro turbo pump with sytec filters fore and aft, with the regulator set at 5psi at idle. It only creeps up a little with boost, but i think this is due to the previous query about not making much boost. Reg is a new Malpassi as per o.e. and 5/16"/8mm flow, 10mm return hoses. With the pump running, fuel would escape from the breather tail next to the fuel-in tail on the carb. (Or it would if it wasn't blanked off.) Is my fuel pressure too high and do I need to install a pressure switch to knock the pump off when it reaches desired pressure? Or is fuel pressure ok and its just a case of the float valve not shutting properly?

3)which may be related to 2...the car will idle all day long, will rev cleanly, and drive well (albeit with little boost showing) for the first two to four minutes say. It will then cough and die with what feels like fuel starvation, or a similar feeling to it having and air leak, but it will only do it after a bit of driving. Im going to swap the coil just to eliminate it, because im kind of clutching at straws a bit now. The only other thing is where I've put the fuel lines, across the bulkhead behind the carb/plenum, (it's a Metro...) are they likely to be getting heat soak from the turbo? They are stainless braided, and the turbo has a heat-blanket on, could they still be getting too hot and vapourising the fuel?

What is more annoying is the engine was bought having been run and driven in a mini based buggy, where it went like holy-hell and made around 12psi. It was, and is intercooled, I've just piped it to fit my application. The fuel pump and pressure reg are the same parts, again plumbed to fit my application. It's a 1380 with a T3, a dialled in Avonbar Phase 2 cam, head work etc etc all as it was when it was in the other car.

Sorry for such an essay, I'll stick a bob or two in the funds pot!



1. The actuator should never see enough boost with the car stationary to operate or move at all. That is a problem.

2. Sounds like your needle valve is not sealing, fuel should not be escaping anywhere other than the actual dashpot needle/jet !
No idea which Sytec filter you refer to, but I know some of them are crap, and not suited at all to running in front of a fuel injection type pump. Although that is not the problem you're having here.

But if fuel is escaping there, then it's probably dumping huge amounts out via the needle too...which is messing up everything with regards fueling.

No sense worrying about 3 until 1+2 are resolved...which will probably fix 3.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

Cheers TurboDave16v and stevieturbo for your suggestions, so the general consensus is that it's too much fuel rather than too little, and the wastegate actuator needs more preload/is weak. Its presumably a stock actuator, its the zinc-plated steel body type of affair, certainly not a fancy alloy one or anything like that.
I'm just about to go and wind the fuel pressure down a little, I'll try the footpump trick and see what the waste gate opens at, then I guess whip the carb off and clean/replace the needle valve. I'm inclined to say the whole carb could do with a dose of cleaning perhaps, as the link that you put up TurboDave16 speak's about fuel pressure rising massively at the point where mani pressure changes vac to boost, which mine does not, so I'll cracking on with this and report back from there.

Thanks for all your help up to now guys, much appreciated, I've put the petrol and matches away now. For the time being 😂


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

OK fuel pressure tweaked down to 3psi👍
Hooked the tyre inflator up the the actuator in the best heath-Robinson fashion, starts opening at +/-2psi, fully open by +/-4. The gauge isn't 100% accurate, but I think it may be reasonable to say the actuator has had it? With the actuator removed I can pull the rod out relatively easily.
I've put a pic of it on, I don't know if that number helps identify it at all?


Attachments:

Edited by Ben5004 on 14th May, 2018.


stevieturbo

3358 Posts
Member #: 655
Post Whore

Northern Ireland

OEM actuator is soft...although yours sounds a little too soft.

Was it installed with any preload on it ?

3-5psi FP will be fine.....as long as it doesnt blow past the needle valve, ultimately that's what you need to check.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

I've popped a pic on of the preload, around 3-4mm thereabouts, the waste gate is closed in the pic.
There was some rust/bits in the float bowl, and a bit stuck in the needle valve seat, I'm hoping it's that simple. The engine has a few Avonbar bits on, it looks like it has what is termed on Avonbar''s website as a 'high flow needle valve'. Either way I can blow down the fuel inlet, lift the float and it shuts off, so hopefully it's sorted. Possibly a silly question, when the float bowl gets full and is shut of by the valve, should the fuel then just return to the tank by the return on the pressure reg?


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Turbo Phil

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4252 Posts
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My sister is so fit I won't show anyone her picture

Lake District

Have you completely removed the needle valve assembly ? There's a little gauze filter attached to it that can easily clog. I just removed mine and used a suitable filter in line.

Phil.,

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

I have Phil yeh I took the whole thing to bits, float out, valve and the brass seat thing out. There was a little bit of muck or something in the valve seat bit, but the guaze was pretty clean 👍


stevieturbo

3358 Posts
Member #: 655
Post Whore

Northern Ireland

Fuel is always circulated from tank, pump to FPR, then back to tank, the carb only takes off/uses what the engine needs.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

Hi all, me again 😂
OK so two of the original problems sorted 👍👍
Carb stripped and cleaned which solved the fuel leaking out the side and the old actuator replaced which has cured the no boost issue. Now makes 10psi.

I've still got the cutting out issue though, the more I look the more it seems to be fuel starvation. (I've swapped the coil for a known-good one just to eliminate it) It seems to do it when it's hot and under load/making boost. Once it's coughed, spluttered and died, the pressure gauge drops down to zero, then takes ages to build back up. I've whipped the fuel cap off and it's not vacuuming the tank, I know stevieturbo said above the Sytec filters are no good in front of the pump, is it possible the filters are strangling it? I know the obvious thing is to whip the filters out and then try it, just wondered if anyone's had this?


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

First filter between tank and pump


Attachments:


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

Pump


Attachments:


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

Filter between pump and carb


Attachments:


Sprocket

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11040 Posts
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Preston On The Brook

Whats the filter before the pump for? What type of fuel tank are you using?

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


tadge44

2943 Posts
Member #: 2500
Post Whore

Buckinghamshire

I always used a pre-pump filter to protect the pump from anything coming from the tank and never had a problem.
I,m doing the same with the Twinky installation.


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

It's the standard metro steel tank under the car, with a return added from the reg. Pre-filter just to stop and rust/muck/debris getting sucked out the tank and through the pump


Turbo Phil

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My sister is so fit I won't show anyone her picture

Lake District

Is the pump mounted below the level of the tank ?

Phil.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM


Ben5004

33 Posts
Member #: 11676
Member

The pump is in the spare wheel well Phil


Turbo Phil

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My sister is so fit I won't show anyone her picture

Lake District

The pump needs to be mounted below the tank. They're gravity fed.

Phil.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM


Tom Fenton
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Fearless Tom Fenton, Avon Park 2007 & 2008 class D winner

&

TM legend.

Rotherham South Yorkshire

As Phil says. Also pre filter unions look too small, the metro pipe from tank to filter was pretty large.
I know a pump pre filter is good practise but really Iíd make sure your tank is free of shit and then put the pump back where BL intended as itís known to work fine there.


On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:


On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else


Like fuel 😂😂

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