Setting the timing on a K1200rs conversion
Turbo Mini Forums

Hi Guys,

So I recently fitted a brand new 1380 K1200rs converted engine into my car, built for me by Specialist Components, and I'm having trouble getting it to even start.

The first thing I'll say is that SC have been excellent in helping me, pulling out all the stops. I couldn't have asked for better after care. Alas though, now they're off for the Christmas break, so I instead turn to you knowledgeable guys for guidance.

Here's the rundown. I have perfect spark on all plugs, the injectors (Bosch 440cc) are all firing perfectly with good fuel pressure in the rail, I have the throttle bodies cracked as far as the adjustment screw will allow me, the crank position sensor is set at 0.6mm, and the battery is fully charged.

Despite having all 3 ingredients for combustion, I still can't get it to fire. It just turns over and over, with the occasional pop from the exhaust. If I throttle it while cranking then these pops become louder and more frequent.

I've checked the order of the HT leads on the coil a million times, (anti-clockwise with 1 at the top right post as you look at it), so all I can think of now is the timing. This is something that I haven't checked as I was under the impression that it would have been done by SC, but I may be wrong. I have set the timing on my old carbed 1275. but I have no idea how to go about doing it on this conversion, so if anyone is able to give me a step by step guide then that would be much appreciated!

I'm also more than happy to hear other suggestions of what could be stopping my engine from firing.

Engine spec;
- 1380
- k1200rs head
- drilled/worked crank
- LT cams
- Delta 400 ECU
- Bosch 440cc injectors
- full straight cut box/drops
- 3.1 FD
- etc...

Cheers
Chris

From what has been said if they built the engine it should be spot on, however always worth checking.

How big is the gap between the trigger wheel and sensor? Could even be a faulty crank sensor maybe.

I used SC's cam timing method which is to set the engine with No.1 piston at tdc. then set the cam timing in the overlap position.

Just looking at their build guide they recommend setting the lift for LT cams with both at at 2.0mm lift.

That is to say that at TDC there is 2.0mm lift on both inlet and exhaust cams. The inlet will have have just started opening, and the exhaust valve has nearly finished closing.

I'm built my own engine, but running a lot of SC parts, included the Delta ecu, with with sprint cams and it fired up on the first turn of the key.

Do you have any timing reference marks on the crank pulley / timing plate of the conversion?
If so stick a timing strobe on and see how far off the actual timing is compared to what the ecu software is showing that's its seeing?
Can the sensor position be moved (to advance or retard timing) on the SC kit or is it fixed position.
Have you tried spraying easy start into the throttle bodies while cranking ( to rule out fueling side of the system)?
Lastly, fresh fuel?

Shane

It may sound patronising (but not intended to be) but go back to basics, spark at the right time, fuel at the right time and air.

The first start of my K build (granted using emerald) I locked the timing via the ECU and checked the reading. With the fuel pump relay out tried starting it on easy start.
When I was happy with the coughs and farts the fuel pump relay was installed for a run.

Again a basic check, plug gaps?

Shane

Edited by chris_rd92 on 25th Dec, 2020.

As you've rightly said 3 key things are there, air, fuel spark. You just need to ascertain which is out of sink.
Proving the timing would be my first port of call.
My assumption would be the crank sensor is giving a signal if your being the injectors fire.
What block are you using? `if `mpi
does the SC system utilise the MPI cam angle sensor? if so is it timed correctly?

Shane

If its a '92 ish block then it won't be the MPI one so at least it rules out cam angle sensor.
As mentioned if the cams are at approx 2mm lift on overlap at TDC then the cam timing is in the right ball park then it doesn't leave you much.

Shane

Edited by shane on 25th Dec, 2020.

I'm not familiar with the SC ECU at all, with Emerald there is the ability to lock the ignition timing at a fixed position (e.g 15 degrees before TDC) to allow you to check calibrate the sensor position and trim the ignition timing to compensate for any error in sensor position. This is dependant on knowing your timing marks are correct and TDC mark being true TDC.

Edited by shane on 25th Dec, 2020.

I hope you made progress on this Chris, so annoying to be that close, we've all been there.

in my experience, it is usually fueling that causes the issue, with a carb its nomally close enough that you can get it to run, with injecton it can be trickier

I assume the plugs arnt wet?

have a look for a global map scaling funtion in the oftware and try upping it by 20% obviosly note what you change and back up the map so you can change it back to what it was.
alternativly you can IIRC select the cells around idle as a group and scale them up to richen.

Hi guys,

Not had a huge amount of time over the last couple of days, but today I went out for a quick poke around, and I do have an update of sorts... not sure if it's progress though!

So literally all I did first was swap the 2 left HT leads on the coil with the 2 right ones. So instead of going 1234 counterclockwise from the top right post, it now goes 1234 clockwise from the bottom left post. (I know this makes no sense at all, I was just having another mess around with them). I have tried so many different configurations that I was certain I'd covered this one, but obviously not.

Now when cranking, instead of just turning over and over endlessly, it jumps straight into actually trying to fire up. It's hard to explain but it pics up the pace and cranks at double time in the recognizable way any car does right before it fires up. like it's desperately trying to and very close, but no matter how long I crank it for, it just won't actually fire.

Here are the peculiar details I've noticed; occasionally I get a puff of smoke out the throttle bodies (usually the third body from the fan, and usually when I stop cranking).

After cranking, the manifold becomes warm to the touch on branch 1, 2, and 3, but not 4 (closest to clutch end), this one stays stone cold. I assume this is because I have no ignition here, I've tried swapping the leads and plugs, but the result is the same.

As for plugs, 1, 2, and 3 are always varying degrees of black when I remove them, some more than others (particularly number 3 which is always filthy). 4 on the other hand is squeaky clean every time I check. Very hard to tell if it's wet or not, I think it is getting damp but it definitely smells of fuel.

If I give it any throttle at all while cranking, it slows down and goes back to simply turning over.

I'm also getting a bit of smoke from the bores when I remove the plugs.

Regarding altering the map, this is something that is well out of my comfort zone, so I'd rather wait for guidance from SC before attempting anything like that, or even let them do it themselves via a remote session. I'd be sure to make a mess of it!

Hope at least some of that makes sense! I've tried to be as clear as possible.

Thanks guys, really appreciate the help so far.

Edited by chris_rd92 on 26th Dec, 2020.

Are the posts on the coil pack marked up with n umbers at all?
as its wasted spark you can't really go a million miles out without showing signs of firing?
Fresh fuel?
Have you put a timing strobe on to check the timing?

Shane

Do you know the origin of the coil pack that SC use? Ford?
How many wires within the loom connect to the coil plug connector? 3?

Shane

Could well be right, the two "control signals" govern pairs of plug, which would account for your leads giving better response opposite way round.

This is the line of thought I was going with, Ill take a pic of my ford item shortly for number referencing.
The other thought I had is missing tooth position relative to sensor gap.

Shane

Attachments:

2.32mb

There is a good coil pack picture on here that shows the numbers, and it looks like the part SC sell.

http://talkford.com/community/topic/196249...pack-confusion/

Chris, have you checked to see if you're actually getting a spark from cylinder no.4? As it's wasted spark, you can swap it with cylinder 1 to test if required. From experience with this ecu, i know the base maps from SC are garbage and require loads of tweeking. Do you have a wideband lambda fitted to the car?

Thanks for that link metroturbo. That bottom diagram definitely looks like the one I have.

I did test all a plugs last time I was working on the car, and all seemed to be working perfectly, but I'll check again when my dad is next free to crank the car for me while I look.

So if the base map from SC is indeed a rubbish, where do I go from here? Who do I speak to? I have no experience at all with ECU mapping, I was under the impression that the car needed to be running and on a rolling road before any sort of mapping could be done?

I did venture out today to set the engine to top dead center and to see where the position of the missing tooth on the trigger wheel is in relation to it. But that fell flat on it's face when I realised that I can't get a spanner on the crank pully bolt to turn the engine over without removing the entire cooling system... Didn't fancy doing that in 1 degree weather so I retreated back inside in a bit of a huff...

I also noticed that I don't have any markings or reference points whatsoever for checking the timing. there is a notch on the crank pully, and a white line on the cambelt, but nothing to line it up with on the engine itself. There does appear to be some rotational adjustment to the teeth on the trigger wheel, but again, I can't get to this until I remove all the cooling system.

Was it a crate engine? As in you just dropped it in, or did you build it from their parts? Trying to work out if there may have been a point where you may have got the timing out. Main things to check are the cam timing and ignition timing. If the cam timing is correct and the ignition timing is right on the gun, then it is down to the mapping. Problem with cold starting is there are SO many variables; crank fueling, coolant temperature multiplier, inlet air temp multiplier, base fueling etc. Although the fuelling on the base map should be enough to at least get it to run, even if poorly on some throttle.