intercooler / charge cooler advice
Turbo Mini Forums

i have been given three cosworth intercoolers, two 2wd ones (one of which has been converted to a charge cooler) and 1x 4wd. i notice most people put em at the front up top then cut loads of holes in the bonnet, i was hoping not to do this, can these intercoolers be positioned lower down or will they foul the dizzy ? the outlets have been modified on all so they come straight out rather than one being offset ??

which is best charge cooler 2wd or 4wd ?

Edited by Richie on 23rd Jul, 2006.

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MikeRace, Mini13

4WD cooler if fits

1293 Turbo mini

would going for charge cooler be more advantageous than intercooler ? for application to turbo mini (track day car / sunny staurday car)

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MikeRace, Mini13

Forgive me if im wrong, but i'd have thought that a charge cooler dumping heat to the cooling system would require a bigger rad.

So either its fit a charge cooler and then a bigger rad, Front mount? or just fit an intercooler.

Current ly looking at this issue myself for the 16valver. Looking to run a slim front mount intercooler and slim front mount rad in tandem, but that depends how much i can massage a gentle bend into them. Some R&D required

no a charge cooler requires a seperate cooling system

"Can I legally marry people now that I am ordained in the Church of the SubGenius?" aka i know jack sh"t

i also make things

i love coming home to chrome

i have seen one on a dax rush it has a seperate tank and pump system.

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MikeRace, Mini13

Hi,
Charge cooler's are good if you can find the space for the charge cooler and it's radiator. Getting cool air across the charge cooler's rad is as important as getting cool air across an intercooler.
You may find it easier to get the charge cooler rad down behind the grille as they tend to be quite slim, put the charge cooler up top, no holes in the bonnet!
Failing that the 4WD is a double core version of the 2WD one.
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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If i was ever going the charge cooler route i would not have the "cooler" part even in the engine bay. I'd run the boost pipes through the bulkhead and mount the cooler tucked up under the dash.

That would leave plenty of romm under the bonnet.

I have fitted both 2wd and 4wd coolers in Minis, i would go for the 2wd, smaller and lots less fooking about.

I sure AlexB can post a photo of the frog, not the neatest install but all done with bits out of the scrap bin and odds laying around the garage.

You will notice the end cap has been cut off and re welded at 90 degrees.

It is also well worth cleaning out the cooler inside, lots of oil etc collects on these old coolers, chuck a pint of petrol in it and give it a "sloosh out"

JF....

sorry to hyjack, but would a fiat punto gt intercooler be any good?

luckily for me all the nozzles have been cut and are 90 deg they were for a dax rush with a 4wd escort cossie engine in running a T35 at 20 - 30 psi (i think i heard that right) The lad, who also is getting into the turbo mini scene and will be registering soon !! has got a charge cooler on his rush with the rad at the front.

my thoughts were
side mounted rad for cooling engine, (i have a 1100 rad which has always done the trick) front rad for me cooler then put the large header tank in the back of the mini with te pump and as you say put the cooler straight through the bulkhead. my only thoughts being i only intend to run 12 - 14 psi boost so would this be overkill ? and perhaps a very expensive way of going about it ?
admittantly it would be different !
but if i was going to do it i could even get the 4wd one welded up same. the guy said that the 2wd charge cooler was good for around 280 - 300 bhp which is way above my scale as iam looking for max 150 - 170... i dont know guys my mind needs made up asap as car goes for paint in 3 weeks, i would need to be able to put rubber boots around the pipes where it goes through bulkhead so i could keep gases etc out.

Edited by Richie on 23rd Jul, 2006.

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MikeRace, Mini13

rite i think i got it me mukka came down and gave me a hand. and the foolowing was learnt !

charge cooler will not go behind dash because
1) the inlet/outler nozzles fowl a whole host of stuff in engine bay !
2) i wont be able to put me clocks anywhere
3) its just too much damn hassle lmao

however ! it will fit inside the passenger wing. one nozzle comes through the heater apperture (i am not having a heater matrix.) and the other comes through into the engine bay.

so it is my intention to run a pipe along inside of bulkead then through and onto plenum (with a modified take off.
the other end will come accross and go onto the compresser. both runs will be very short.

i will have to run with a front rad, and my oil cooler will go at the front, then i will have to place the rad to cool the charger where the side rad would have gone, or opposite side (i have no inner wings to woory about. that just leaves one other thing

i was going to have a take off after the last pot then an extra rad, but there will be no where 4 this now :(

alternately i could have the charge cooler rad strapped onto me other front rad, i was just going to use a metty rad as the charge cooler one as all.

any inspiring advice would be nice, i want to try this as it dont seem to reallty have beem covered and in theory water has a better cooling effect than air (it would seem) so an avenue worth exploring methinks.
can you all start fault finding for me now it will help !!



cheers

Richie

ps hope this works, it would be nice to be a first for once :) :) :)

Edited by Richie on 23rd Jul, 2006.

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MikeRace, Mini13

sh*T looks like its been done already :(

but hey looks like it must work, owens fabrication look like they have done similar with success by the look of it (that is if it is a charge cooler)
but basically this is where mine will go but being a 2wd cossie intercooler its slimmer n slightly longer

Edited by Richie on 23rd Jul, 2006.

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MikeRace, Mini13

Not a charge cooler, but a catch tank...

Charge coolers are for the bling brigade IMO, unless they're on a car that lives its life a 1/4 mile at a time (!)
No reason at all to fit one in a road-going / track mini. There is tons of room in the cramped mini engine bay for an intercooler - and even the 30-degree air temps you're unlucky enough to see in summer is game for a decent intercooler install.

Just my opinion... :)

Edited by turbodave16v on 24th Jul, 2006.

but if you were given a bling charge cooler and had the rad and pumps would you use it ?

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MikeRace, Mini13

can someone clarify the difference between the 2wd and 4wd cossie intercooler? I was led to belive they are similar? i know of got a cossie intercooler, but am now not sure which one it is.

Was there a site that dave made up with some pics on???

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

Found it, as previously posted my mr turbodave

http://www.lyons-it.co.uk/photo/Intercoolers/index.html

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

Personally I'd use a well thought out intercooler, Charge Coolers can experience massive amounts of heat soak in the water system, especially when queuing up for a run!

Another mistake people make is having too bigger water reservoir.

Graham
www.grsmotorsport.co.uk

Edited by GRSmotorsport on 24th Jul, 2006.

Graham
www.grsmotorsport.co.uk

Believe me Graham knows his onions...

My metro never sees more tham 80 degress after a race in the summer heat.

I use his rads.. http://www.hc-racing.co.uk/index.php?p=16

JF.

what size reservoir would i need for a 2wd cossie (converted to a charge cooler ?) i will be using a fiat shittyshento lol rad, which is same size as metro one but outlets are at one end. this rad is mounted behind grille with two fans on. i was going to put a coolant mix in the water ? is this right or wrong ? the cooler is mounted in my wing, as per the catch tank config on my earlier post.

i will be giving this a go lads, at least if its a success i can share data with the forum, and its an option for people rather than cutting wedges out of bonnets etc etc

options are always good IMHO i will just need to know what size reservoir i need, and what bar the water needs to flow at.

Edited by Richie on 25th Jul, 2006.

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MikeRace, Mini13

I'm thinking that a small motorbike rad is more than enough personally... ah - I see Peter is reading, so I'll take a back-seat! LOL

hahahahaha lads all this feedback is good, dont be afraid to say its shite, but back it up with tech data if poss. i know it works on me mates dax rush and that thing is tuned to bits like 30 psi is rediculous

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MikeRace, Mini13

I'd be interested in your 4x4 intercooler if you'd like to sell!

lmao. vegard i will keep you posted, this idea may go belly up as yet , but you gots first dibs

if i use the shitty shento rad, what will happen, i was just thinking that the surface area on the rad would be better for cooling ?
i re measured it, and it is acually alot smaller than the metro rad, infact the core and end tanks are the size of the core alone on the metty rad, it is also half the thickness :) (its designed to cool a 900cc motor)

Edited by Richie on 25th Jul, 2006.

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MikeRace, Mini13

sweet lmao, i will post pics of mine v soon i have retro fitted most of the components, it will all be coming off as car goes for paint back end of next week :)

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MikeRace, Mini13

hi guys - new on your forum!

in fact i'm the one guilty of giving richard (myfirstturbo) the cosworth intercoolers. all those intercoolers have actually been on my dax rush at various times and i would say that first of all that particular chargecooler does not work as well as it could (didn't understand enough about thermodynamics at the time doh!).

obviously i have no experience of turbos on mini but i can say that a water based system is far more complex than a simple air/air setup.

the rush has very little frontal area and the turbo on my car is specced to come on boost early but also work at the top end too. to acheive this it is well ouside of its most efficient working area at the top end resulting in a high amount of energy being consumed in heating the charge air.

at 3700 rpm its prodcuing about 1.3 bar and at 5k its 2bar dropping to 1.5 bar again at 7.2k. at the top end there is a huge amount of heat created (the chargecooler was designed and built by a guy in aussie who calculated that the turbo was introducing about 50kw of heat into the charge air at full throttle at 7k rpm!) the avaliable frontal area would never support an intercooler capable of this amount of heat extraction potential so an air water unit was required. incidentally his web site is very informative about air/water units http://www.are.com.au/ (apparently its only in the uk wthat the phrase 'chargcooler' is used.

i havent actually measured charge air temps but the car was live mapped by cosworth specialists who said it was fine and when on track it doesn't appear to lose power due to all the water eventually heating up. i guess its about the on boost / off boost ratio since you are extracting any residual heat from an air/water unit 100% of the time whereas you can only do it the instant that you craete it with a standard intercooler system.

one final point about heat soak. if the engine is actually running rather than just sitting there switched off, the air required to keep it idling will still be going through an intercooler system and prob help to reduce the liklehood of heat soak. if heat soak was still a problem with an air to air unit on a mini i'd personally blast the outside of the intercooler with cold wter from the washer bottle rather than go the chargecooler route. there are often chargecooler systems from rsturbos on ebay.

good luck to richard anyway!