the legality of twin engined road going mini's
Turbo Mini Forums

This is a subject i know nothing about, we'll other than knowing of the existance of a couple twin engined minis. Obviously there was a twin bike engined mini and there was a prototype in the 60's? I belive there have been a couple of copies of this aswell?

I was just concidering the MOT/legality aspect of a twin engined mini? Obviously its not a normal mod and is substantially changing the essence of the car, would it therefore need an extra test? Q-plate? Would it be mot passable? What about age of vehicle, does this make a difference?

Any info would be appriciated.

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

haven't there been a few twin engined golfs/R5's etc that were road legal?

I'd have thought that normal stuff would apply really, like a sealed rear bulkhead and all the usual MOT type stuff. No idea if it'd need any extra testing etc though.

I don't think they would handle very well on the bends, Carl, how does yours feel?

Team Racing

one thing I do know, (as per Buds comment) is that you must have a firewall between you and the engine behind you. I have noticed on some of the golf conversions they have not got one...and i believe there is a vidoe doing the rounds at the mo with a golf bursting into flames on a rolling road. the firewall / bulkhead must be sealed its kinda pretty much as per MSA scrutiny regs for rallycross / autocross :), i was tinkering with the idea of a 2.4 T5 4wd volvo lump. the new ones are alloy and dont weigh as much as folk think, they also push out 250 bananas from stock psi :) power to weight would be nuts !!! and you dont have to piss about with the throttle timing / gears etc etc if i was going to front / rear engine a mini it would probably be with very big motorbike engines.

Edited by Richie on 14th Dec, 2006.

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I would imagine that it would need to have a full SVA test, much the same as a kit car does.

This is based on the fact that any "radically altered or new build / kit" vehicle needs a SVA test but those that use a standard floor pan (some Mini and Bettle based kits out there for example) do not need a test.

There is even a grey area over things like the Domino's that use standard Mini front and rear subframes on a fiberglass replica floor pan.....

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

in my opinion you can get away with a lot! you can re shell a car, fit twin engines etc all you really need do is inform the insurance company, change the log book and take it for an mot once the existing one runs out.

if you ask dvla and tell them what you've done then they could make a fuss. give you Q plates and enforce an SVA test

i looked into the SVA for a motorbike. its a pain in the neck. for example a Mk1 mini in mint condition would fail!! you need "e" marked lights, handbrake warning light, each and every weld is inspected and needs to be perfect etc etc

Interesting thoughts chaps, i have seen that vid and will fit a rear bulkhead if i do it, but its very much in the development stakes at the moment and wont ever progress from a budget type of build.

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

Pretty sure the twin engined rs turbo pickup uses one engine on the road and 2 on the track

Metro turbo weekend driver,Mini turbo in the making again!

lmao at turbo shed. do you not think that they make a fuss for a good reason ? if in doubt andeh consult the construction and use regulations buddy and you wont go wrong :) also no good building summit and trying to use it on its current MOT this is illeagal as you have modified the car since its last inspection (that is to say you have major mods, not just change of wheels etc etc) Also if you do that, when it does come to MOT time you may end up with a prohibition order on the car which is a pain. i think i still have my MSA con use regs book, and i can crossref with them from my work books, if you have any queries.

if ure gonna do it, do it propper...TM style bud

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if you follow the rules properly then almost all old minis would be Q plates due to the number of non original parts fitted. that is to say you can change the shell but must re-use the original subframes and engine. how many people would fit a rusty subframe and nackered engine to a new shell? non? so non of these declaired everything to the dvla.

yes fitting a second engine is a major modification and if done wrong could lead to death but so could fitting new brake pads wrong.

should we have an mot after changing pads? no

at the end of the day the mot is only proof the car could pass some tests whilst at the mot station. you can change the engine between mots just remember to inform the insurance company and get the logbook changed to show the new engine number and capacity.

just remember there is more than one way to do a job properly and legally

another point to remember is John Cooper nearly died in a twin engined moke on the A3 in Surrey many many years ago when the rear decided to turn as a weld broke.

the moke was an experiment done by John Cooper and as we know he also did race cars etc, so this should have been a quality build. if he got it wrong so could you, potentially killing yourself and other road users

still a good idea and could be good fun

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

On 14th of Dec, 2006 at 03:09pm my first turbo said:
lmao at turbo shed. do you not think that they make a fuss for a good reason ? if in doubt andeh consult the construction and use regulations buddy and you wont go wrong :) also no good building summit and trying to use it on its current MOT this is illeagal as you have modified the car since its last inspection (that is to say you have major mods, not just change of wheels etc etc) Also if you do that, when it does come to MOT time you may end up with a prohibition order on the car which is a pain. i think i still have my MSA con use regs book, and i can crossref with them from my work books, if you have any queries.

if ure gonna do it, do it propper...TM style bud

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

Sounds like RogerM is our resident 'modification legality' consultant!!! Good information above.

i havent got anything to back this up but i was always under the impression that its legal to have a twin engined car on the road but illegal to use both engines on the road.

i think i seen it on a programme on day a policeman had a twinned lotus 7.

no longer a series, but still 1.3 turbo.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=8584

thought id share my experience of what happened when i built the above bike ,
this was 2001 . i bought the frame and sold the engine ,the frame had been cut in half just behind the head stock , so i made a jig and reattached it with a fair bit of internal and external beefing up ,the engine was bought from the breakers ,and the turbo etc were donations or stuff from breakers .
i called the dvla ,and spoke to the chap in charge of new project modified vehicles with no v5 ,i told him all about it ,and he said ok , to q plate it , i need to see a recipt for the frame and the engine ,and you have to make sure the old frame no is off the frame , then i send you a new frame no ,and you go and get your mor WITHOUT A NUMBER PLATE and then you send in the mot form and i send you a q plate reg no ....astonished i said , but dont you need to inspect such a modified bike ,and he said ,well you sound like you know what your doing so i dont think we'll need to bother with an inspection !!!
that was it .
fun ensued with no probs.
regards robert.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

They are usually fair, how strict depends on if they think your up to the job and if your taking the mick. Treat them straight they will treat you straight in my experience.

As far as the legal stuff goes I have in the past helped a fair few people with the Dutton owners club get cars through SVA (which some said would be impossible) and deal with the DVLA on various issues. It all comes from when I built my first turbo Mini. I had two cars, one with great running gear that had been crashed and a cat C write off (cabin fire) with essentially a perfect shell, was less than 1 year old.

I also had the biggest ass hole in the world as a neighbour he even had the council force me to take my garage down because THEY had relaid the pulic footpath too close to it after renovations!!! Anyway I built the car on my drive over Xmas and New Year (yes, a nutter but it really was the only place / time I could do it) and he rang the DVLA to say I was "ringing" it.

After learning all there was to know about those sort of things I successfully put the car through an inspection and kept my plate which was my then girlfriends initals follows by 123N which indicated her birthday, month and year.

I had great satisfaction a couple of years later when he reported me for handling stolen goods (long story but I wasn't) for getting him heavily fined for wasting police time.

In 1998 I was just finishing my kitcar rebuild with modified chassis and suspension including independant rear end to my own design to match the front. The real problem was that teh original builder had not registered it properly and it was down as a Dutton Escort. Well to cut a long story short I got it done so that it was the last car to be put through Worcester DVLA prior to SVA coming in to force the following morning!!! It really looked like I wasn't going to make it in time as I was being let down by the body shop painting it for me (had nowhere suitable to spray back then) so spent every waking moment I wasn't working on the car researching the SVA and potential problems.

Also helped a couple of people import US classics that were never officially brought into the Uk that had been hot rodded.

I am not an official "expert" but yet to have a problem dealing with the DVLA etc.

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

For information there are plenty of twin engined cars on the road. Those that work best on the road are usually two engines feeding one transmission (often two bike motors).

One engine front and one rear is a real problem to get in sync (throttles, gear changes, clutches, torque curve etc.). If something goes wrong it almost always results in a visit to the hedge!!

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

Good to have you on-board the TM ship Roger, I feel you'll be called on to assist others in the future.
:)

Surely having the torque split 50/50 will result in major understeer? Just thinking most 4WDs have 60/40 split or a viscous coupling/central diff. Would be great on a loose surface though!

Roger, good info on the SVA/Kitcar/Modified car in general. Cheers!

Havent really concidered the in's and out's of the installation yet as i wasnt too sure on the legality side.

I've seen the future and tbh its Pie

I'm more than happy to help if I can .....

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

I was looking at building a twinny with my red one. After speaking to guy who used to race one, it sounds like a bad idea. They are a nightmare to set up to go around bends, synchronising the engines is not the way to go and you either need to bugger about with throttle quadrants, have a bigger front engine with more welly or have split throttles.

John Cooper was using a mini minor prepared for the targo florio with 2 weslake 8 ports chucking out a lot of welly.

I think it had a front subby at the back and the steering arm had been welded to the subframe and came unshipped.

I reckon it's more of an engineering exercise but worth it. If you want a 4wd mini, use a Suzuki Swift or something.

That guy Nick Preston (IIRC) had a roadgoing one which looked like it went around corners. The corners and how you make it happen are the catch and how you attempt to get around this is the central snag of having a drivable car. The Rob Embley one had split pedals. That twinny pick up has gone down the identical route (which is wrong). The guy I spoke to had big problems with getting it to not understeer hugely on corners. Quadrants are no good if you want top performance and split pedals demand totally precise control.

Most of the guys are only concerned with going in a straight line.

There is a twini on youtube which looks like it goes allright though.

Stu

Bugger off, I'm getting there.

also you only need q plate when the id of the car is unknown, or a kit is being made without donor. if you are using a mini shell with chassis numbers still intact then all you are doing is modifying that car. it still remains a mini, just a modded one :)

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MikeRace, Mini13