Wasted spark setup – problems starting.
Turbo Mini Forums

Hi guys.

I'm at the end of my 1293 turbo Mini Van build and am running one of Phil Ringwood’s MS1-Extra ECU’s along with Ford wasted spark coil pack, RST i/c, 10 mm leads, AEM Wideband AFR/O2 meter, Knocksense, H2O injection, fan control, Greddy Boost Controller, Trip Comp, etc.

I've de-snagged everything with the sparky side and all's ok with the mechanicals except I have some difficulty starting.

The fuel pump / oil pressure switch interlocks are ok, the pump runs great and the ECU powers up fine, both whilst at cranking position 3 and at normal position 2.

The carb anti run on pipe is blanked off on the carb. The leads are connected from the coil pack in the correct Bank A / Bank B convention. The fuel pipes on the regulator are ok and excess fuel is going back to the tank with wet plugs if too much cranking. The valve clearances and cam timing were trebble checked when I built everything up.

I've run a comms check between laptop and ecu and all is good.

Whilst cranking, Megatune shows rpm rising to crank speed, AFR/O2 changing (fluctuating), pump running etc. Fuel is getting through to the plugs and when I rebuilt the carb I set the jet height flush with the bridge (ok for initial setting up ?). I made sure the gaskets between the plenum and carb didn’t foul the vacuum / boost passages and I incorporated the fabricated jet holder mod to using the advice here in TM.

I’ve searched the TM & MSEFi forums and upon taking advice on some of the threads and pics, I’ve set the trigger wheel on my SC sensor bracket so that the missing tooth on my 36-1 trigger wheel is in alignment with the Ford VR sensor at the 8 o'clock position BTDC. At this position, the crank pulley TDC mark aligns with the normal timing cover TDC mark at 11 o'clock (ie. 90 degrees / 9 teeth apart where the sensor is located at the front of the pulley).

Sorry for the stupid question but I need some reassurance that my trigger wheel / sensor logic is correct. The engine sounds like its trying to pick up but just won’t light-off, even after a good fix of EazyStart.

My next step is to disconnect the fuel pump (which will at least stop it flooding) and crank it over on a fresh battery with a strobe light connected to see if I'm getting 10 degrees BTDC timing - that's tomorrow's job.

Phil set my ECU up for a 60 degree trigger angle with a 0 degree additional angle and a 10 degree cranking advance angle.

Is this correct for my sensor and trigger wheel setup at 90 degrees ?

The other idea I had was to temporarily disconnect MS and the coilpack and install a dizzy and amp to get it running then I can at least prove the thing fires on standard settings.

If there's anyone with a MS wasted spark setup near Bath I could visit or call for a chat, I'd welcome the opportunity. My mobile numer is 077 1971 4999.

I've attached my Spark Setting and Spark Table screenshots along with an engine bay phot.

I'm nearly there - it's so bloody frustrating. I started the van restoration in 1997 and built the engine in 2003 !

All help much appreciated.

Richard.

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Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

You need to set your missing tooth at TDC when the engine is at TDC and if you have the sensor at 8 o'clock, 120 degrees BTDC, then you have to set your trigger angle at 120 degrees, not 60 as in the picture.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

My bracket position gives me exactly 9 teeth (90 degrees) between sensor and TDC.

I'll try moving the trigger wheel so that the missing tooth is at TDC and retype the trigger angle in Megatune as 90.

I'll try this before doing anything else tonight.

Thanks.

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

Hi,
That would be my choice too :)
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Re-set the trigger wheel to TDC last night along with the trigger angle at 90 deg in Megatune.

Took all 4 plugs out and strapped them to the head with HT leads connected. Disconnected fuel pump and cranked over.

Big fat sparks on all 4 plugs - Zenon timing light shows -10 degrees BTDC on the timing cover (about 2 1/2 notches).

BUT ......

When connected sparks and fuel pump back up, the engine tried to fire but became massively flooded very quickly.

Fuel pressure was 5 psi so reset to 3 psi. Still no luck.

Dried out plugs, took off compressor delivery pipe to i/c, disconnected pump and squirted Eazystart into i/c inlet.

Engine farts nd pops but does not want to fire cleanly.

Gonna try nd take off all plenum stuff and treat as N/A engine.

Think I've got a fuel problem.

Anything else you guys can advise ?

Richard.

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

I would double check that the plug leads are connected in the right order.

A lot of folks find that although they think they have connected them up properly, the engine suddenly fires when connected the other way.

So swap 1 with 2 and 3 with 4.

However, you have stated that your timing light says that they are OK. I assumed you check the timing on No. 1 not 2?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Paul.

I will certainly check.

Timing did come from No 4.

Ty

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

Has he engine been running before?

if not i'd chuck a dizzy in it to fire up on to get the carb set up for idle.

Movin in a more positive direction tonight, albeit limited success.

Dried everythin, checked sparks again (bloody great fat jobs), took dashpot off carb, compared with two other carbs and decided to lower the jet about 2 mm down the holder (really is black and sooty in the carb throat almost like its been back firing during cranking).

Confirmed the leads were fitted ok and that the 'LT' coilpack wires were fitted the right way to/from the MS ECU.

Got a 3-4 second run out of it tonight before it farted and died, however, this was with the pump disconnected.

With the pump in circuit, it wouldnt re-start and flooded almost immediately (all plugs drenched upon removal). This makes me think the flojet in the carb might be stuck with a bit of crap or the float's stuck.

Although lumpy, it proved it can fire and run so I'm reasonably content the starting problem is not ignition related.

Gonna go back to basics and take the plenum and i/c stuff off over the weekend, fit a spare normally aspirated carb that I know is ok then go for another burn.

As long as it will run, I can then start putting the turbo parts back on.

Thanks for help so far.

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

ah, sounds wel rich then, could be the fload valve dribbling, or the choke seals.

Well, IT'S RUNNING !

10 years after staring the restoration, when I heard it start I nearly pissed myself.

I went round the static timing again and convinced myself for the fifth time that all was ok and that I hadn't in fact put the belt drive on one tooth out or something even dumber ....

Had to temporarily disconnect the MS ECU and revert back to fitting an old Turbo dizzy and amp along with a spare normally aspirated HIF 44 carb but at least it runs and gives me a baseline to fit the turbo carb / plenum and MS ECU back on again.

Found a great way of checking the spark and firing order - take the plugs out and cable tie them to the head studs. Connect up HT leads to plugs then jack one front wheel up. Stick the 'box in fourth and with the ignition on II, rotate the wheel by hand. I was able to check the size of the spark, the firing order, and how many degrees BTDC on the pulley the sparks occured (for 1 & 4 anyway).

Couldn't find anything wrong with the turbo carb other than I'd set the float height up wrong (Haynes says 1-2 mm - mine was 4-5 mm) and there was some red sediment in the bottom of the float cover (might have been the reason for the float jet not re-seating but unlikely). No clogged flojet filter, nothing unusual.

Am gonna try re-fitting the turbo stuff one bit at a time, after a trip to see Somerford Minis - gonna need a new starter me thinks.

So much f.....g time wasted having got my build finished already (see attached phot) then having to take everything apart again.

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Richard.

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Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

Hi,
Congratuations :)
You'll soon have it sorted now.
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

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Guys,

Help me out here, what am I doing wrong ????

I can get the engine running sweet on the turbo dizzy with an HIF 44 NA carb fitted but the moment I swap directly over to MS direct coil pack ignition the thing just sounds like it's completely mis-timed and just backfires, hisses, pops, bangs - even to the point of locking the starter up. I'm not happy.

I've done shit loads of hours checking all the settings, reviewing all the forums, re-timed the 36-1 toothed wheel so that the missing tooth is at TDC when the engine is at TDC with the crank sensor at 90 degrees BTDC (exactly 9 teeth).

I've taken the plugs out, strapped them to the block and reconnected the leads - big fat sparks when on the starter.

However, rather than previous attempts where there was a definite split between plugs 1&4 firing then plugs 2&3 firing, the sparks now appear much closer together, even looking like they're occuring simultaneously.

When I shut the ignition off, all 4 plug electrodes now fizzle/spark, presumably as the coil discharges, is this normal ?

I'm not one for giving up - MS is a great piece of kit and I'd like to reap the benefits of ignition mapping.

Reluctantly, however, I'm now bloody stumped unless I give Phil Ringwood a direct e-mail - I'd rather try to sort this myself.

I'd very much appreciate some help or a chat or a visit to someone in the South West who's managed to set their MS system up.

Cheers.

Richard.

Near Bath, Avon.
077 1971 4999.

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

"However, rather than previous attempts where there was a definite split between plugs 1&4 firing then plugs 2&3 firing, the sparks now appear much closer together, even looking like they're occuring simultaneously. "

plugs 1&4 and 2&3 must fire in pairs, if they arn't then the leads must be on wrong.

can you get hold of a strobe and see where the the spark is occuring with the plugs out at cranking speed?


When I shut the ignition off, all 4 plug electrodes now fizzle/spark, presumably as the coil discharges, is this normal ?

not sure on this, I though that the relay that feeds the centre pin on the coil; droped out whn the key is switched of to stop this, but i could be wrong.

Keep it up! you will get there!

Oh and i forgot, thats a cracking looking engine bay!! whre did you get the rad cap? I want one!

blimey ,thats just toooo shiny ,

i think it would be totally unfair to have an engine bay that looks that good ,and have it actually run as well !!!

having said that , have you done the test with one wheel in the air ,and seen where on the crank pulley the sparks occur with the edis ?

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

Hi,
I'm guessing you're not using an EDIS as your running extra?
In the first screen shot it has the ignition output inverted, is that right for your setup?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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A bid of a wild guess but is MS getting a clean signal from the VR sensor?

Have you tried running the engine with the dizzy but MS still connected but only in a monitoring role? if so are the readings on MegaTune believable (especially the rpm)

I hope that makes sense.

Also as Bat mentioned are you running EDIS? If so you should be able to disconnect the MS from the EDIS and run the engine on EDIS only (limp home mode)

If you are running MS1/Extra with a directy connected VR sensor and coils, then you need to get your head around this:



I think that the 90 degree setting may be incorrect with MS1/extra.

In MS2/extra, I have to set the trigger angle to 80 degrees with the sensor at 90 degrees BTDC. Something to do with how it reads the teeth.

I would get the engine running on the dizzy, with the MS, VR sensor and wasted spark coil connected and operating. Check that the MS is reading rpm with Megatune. Then get a HT lead and a spare spark plug, ground the plug and fit the timing light. The timing light will then show you exactly what is going on.

My guess is that you are running 10 degrees too much advance.

Edited by Paul S on 23rd Feb, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Hi,
I'd also go with 5 degrees cranking advance, once you've got it working :)
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Hi guys.

Back from holiday now so I'm gonna try your suggestions tomorrow.

Just to confirm, I'm not using EDIS.

Am using direct fire from from ECU using MS1 Extra.

I too think the timing's well out, certainly worth me running on dizzy and connect up a second set of plugs so that MS can operate for checkinh purposes.

Will report back Tuesday.

Cheers guys.

Help appreciated.

Richard.

Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

IT's RUNNING ON MS ECU.

SORTED at last - Hurrayyyyy !

Long and short of it was that the Trigger Angle, despite having a 90 degree physical relationship between the VR sensor and TDC/TDC missing tooth, was about 30 degrees too retarded. The engine was trying to fire at 20 degrees ATDC on the power stroke !

Although early days, I really only managed to discover this once the engine was started on the dizzy with a spare set of plugs being operated by the MS ECU grounded out against the rocker cover - worked a treat (hopefully photo attached showing the second set of plug leads strapped to the rocker cover).

There's still some fine tuning to do before proper running but I had to run at a Trigger Angle of 60 degrees rather than 90 in order to give me a firing setting of 10 deg BTDC.

Firstly, got the engine firing on a std Mk1 MT Dizzy setup and set the timing by strobe to exactly 10 deg BTDC advance. Ran really sweet for a good 10-15 minutes at 2000 rpm (recognising I've got some more running to do yet to bed the cam in).

With a second set of plugs connected up and grounded out on the top of the rocker cover with MS running effectively in diagnostic mode, I used a second strobe lamp to verify the difference in the dizzy timing marks and the MS timing marks. There was a bloody great difference which I had previously not been able to spot at cranking speed - there's the crux of the issue really - not being able to see this effect at starter crank speed, even with a 595 Amp fresh battery !

Once the dizzy HT leads were replaced by the MS plug leads and I'd added some advance to the MS Trigger Angle along with taking the crank width setting from 10 to 5 degrees, she started first turn and then ran for 5 minutes without a beat until one of the coolant hose clips disappeared across the workshop in a cloud of steam. Dooohhhhh !

But fuck it, it's going ....... great news.

Once running, Megatune screen fed back a clean rpm signal, AFR was good, and the advance increased from 10 to 15 deg when the engine went over 2000 revs showing that the map was being followed. So early indications are good.

Cheers for the welcome advice. Lessons learnt, for sure.

Will update again once all is reconnected and when I've got some better pics to post up of the build.

Richard.

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Minivanless, but reluctantly happy living with the decision. There'll be another one day.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=minimadmotorman#p/u

Fantastic news, glade you've got it running.

EXCELENT!!

Hi,.
Shiny engine bay and a running engine, it's all going on in Bath!
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary