It's Dead - Autopsy 080308
Turbo Mini Forums

I've managed to break something and now it will not run.

I went out yesterday in the car to do the latest datalog of the siamesed code, which is showing some promise.

The LC-1 Wideband on the outers was playing up and was stuck at 20:1, which I could tell was not right because it was running well and a few minutes earlier had been reading correctly. So I returned home.

I checked the programming on the LC-1, which appeared OK, so decided to do a quick re-calibration.

To get all the fuel out, I tried Evo's trick and revved it hard to say 5000rpm and switched off, the idea being to pump all fuel and exhaust gas out the system.

Since then, I've not been able to get it to start.

I have fuel in the tank, 3 bar fuel pressure on cranking and the plugs are getting wet.

I have a spark at the plugs, not blue but big fat orange type.

The Megasquirt is behaving. It knows when I'm cranking and is doing everything it should. I saved a log of severals starting attempts. The engine only cranks at about 150 rpm.

But, Ive only got 8.5 volts at the starter. So I changed the battery - no better. Changed the starter - no better. The volt drop from body to block during cranking is 0.7 volts.

I can get 50 psi oil pressure with the plugs out.

The engine temperature is only 2 degrees C so it is tight, but this first ocurred when the engine was quite warm, so I do not think it is that.

It is as if something is taking a lot of amps to turn and it is dragging the volts down, but god knows what.

Any ideas?

Edited by Paul S on 8th Mar, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

paul i dont thing anythings gone pearshaped internally

one! thing you have soaked the plugs buddy

warm them up on the gas ring and dry them out, refitt and try again
it will spark at the plugs then

sound nuts but give it a go

Thanks Steve,

I've just tried that and still no go. I think a new set of plugs would be a good idea, these have done a few thousand miles.

Still refuses to spin over fast enough to start.

I checked the battery earth lead, 0.1v at cranking so it's not that.

I was hoping to sort this today as I'm off on holiday in the morning and I shall be whittling over it until I get back.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Low volts on cranking will cause a week spark.

The cranking enrichment works on a percentage of the normal calculated pulse width. At 0 derees C it is set at around 300 percent, so that's 3 times normal. but at 20 degrees it is set at 250%. I would not have expected it to make much difference.

However, I wonder if it firing all four injectors on cranking? Two are staged out at the moment. Then there will be 6 times the normal fueling. I'll go and check.

EDIT: Disconected the two injectors that are normally staged out. Nothing but a spectacular back-fire.

Also, coil resistance is normal 0.5 Ohms so I don't thing it the coils.

Edited by Paul S on 17th Feb, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

The MS2/extra code has a table rather than a linear setting, but I think that you are right.

The default setting is a bit high.

Cranking values:

326% at -12
301% at -1
276% at 10
251% at 21

Afterstart Enrichment does not come in until it is running and then it starts at 45% and quickly drops.

Warm Up Enrichment also comes in once it is running.

Edited by Paul S on 17th Feb, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Don't know about Megajolt/squirt but anything under 11 volts with management -you can forget it! It is as simple as that with DTA or Omex - you check everything and all it is is good old volts!

On 5th Sep, 2011 Vegard said:
I stand corrected. You should know

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I think you are right.

I'm only getting 8.5v at the starter and just over 9 at the MS.[/quote]

Yes I would put money on it!

On 5th Sep, 2011 Vegard said:
I stand corrected. You should know

Hi,
Paul ... I'd suspect the battery cable front to rear, or a poor connection at either end if the earths are good.
Cable from starter to solenoid is favourite if you've got an inertia setup.
0.7V seems a little high though, I'd put 0.5 as a maximum, with 0.25V being ideal...
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

the actual ecu should functin on 9v but the injectiors and coil may not cut it at this voltage,

jump leads directly to the solenoid and block??

Just tried it again, but no luck.

However, it did seem to be turning over faster.

The new battery has sit on the garage floor since I bought it a few months ago. I guess it needs a long charge before it is up to scratch.

I'll put it on charge on Friday night when we get back from Paris, then try again Staurday.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I have a wire from the battery running to my ECU just to power it - always had a problem with voltage drop knocking out the ECU unless it was a good battery (if i pulled the ECU feed from the end og the main battery wire in the engine room)...

Same with fuel pump - I have this wired straight to the battery - via a relay in the boot to minimise voltge drop.

Edited by turbodave16v on 17th Feb, 2008.

Actually, the ECU is holding up fine.

I've got a datalog from trying to start it and it has religiously saved the data every 1/4 second.

My money is on a combination of the cold temperatures, poor battery and over fueling.

Another possibility is that the engine is partially siezed.

If it does not start next weekend, then the engine is coming out to make way for the 998 turbo which I shall run NA until the tests are complete.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Yes, but the injectors and coil are not getting enough voltage.

It worked fine for a couple of laps round the village after the circumcision.

Maybe multiple starts on a poor battery and then no more.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Is the VR signal strong enough. with the low voltages the engine obviously turns over slowly, but is the rpm gauge registering. I suffered this too, and put it down to the battery that was 'designed' for the mini being too small and also the fact I abused it over the last year, even after a full day charge, it died. Went out and bought one of those super 500 amp jobs that fill the whole battery box, never had a problem since, well, not that one anyway, lol.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Have you done a compression test to rule out anything dastardly internally

Hi,
Have you checked the ECU grounds?
Obviously the ECU switches coils and injs to ground so this could be your problem, may also be the cause of the WBO2 failure?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

should they not ground to the same point?