diffs and torque steer
Turbo Mini Forums

hello all i'm new here however i've been reading the site for a while (dont have a turbo mini so never joined) however over all this time this site is the one i read the most as its not full of bullshit and bad advise like other forums lol

now onto my question...
i have one of the first customer promotive fwd R1 kits see www.pro-motive.co.uk
the kit uses std driveshafts just swapped the other way round rh-lh etc
the diff is mounted to the subframe, its a mini diff and i have a trans x lsd, the diff casing is oil filled and i'm using catrol diff oil. now my problem is i just cant keep the bloody thing in its own lane when giving it some shit, i've had the tracking and suspension done by v max scart and he set it to the following
camber -ve 0.6
caster 7

i'm also confused between the terms bump steer and torque steer and i've tried searching tinternet and not alot i have come across has been relevent to my mini

lastly i'm running minispares coilover kit back is fully low and the front is wound right offf but the top of the shock is on the higher of the 2 holes the car sits pretty evenly
oh and v max also check the corner weights and he said front left was slightly light but not out by much

pics...
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4265...a1&id=512816636
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4430...8c&id=512816636

thanks lee

Speeding is like masturbating, everyone does it, but not all of us film it and put it on the internet

[quote=fab,8th Oct, 2010]fuck off

what was their test car like? Can they not help?

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!

Hi,
Ideally the rear should sit 20mm higher than the front. Are the front spring rates standard mini?
Also the diff oil may well be too thick for a diff designed to run in engine oil....
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Hello and welcome to the site, you are correct in that bump steer and torque steer are two different reactions on a cars suspension

- torque steer, this is a reaction of the front wheels due to the application of torque from the engine, lots of factors involved, driveshaft angles, wheel offsets. The larger the ground offset - the distance from the contact patch of the tyre and a theorectical line drawn through upper and lower balljoints to the ground - looking from the front of the car, the more likely the car will react to torque from the engine.

- bump steer, this is the "kinematic" motion of the suspension as the wheel moves vertically up and down with the steering arms locked in place - ie no steer applied. If you dis-conencted the rubber do-nut and damper and moved the wheel vertically the line traced by the motion of the wheel determines the suspensions bumps steer characteristics. toe out during a "bump" event makes the car nervous and "darty", a very small degree of toe in during a "bump" event keeps the car stable.

never forget rear toe/camber in a set up - rear toe plays a massive effect into how "un-stable" a mini can be made to be - did you have this set up as well?

I hope this makes sense - maybe some pics of your installation would help further

John

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!

thanks for the quick replys, darrens test car has a quaife as they just bought the new version off the diff out after i got mine argh! but i never drove it only got a ride at castle combe, i've emailed him a with a few questions waiting for a reply...

its all std spring rates on the coilovers and good point about the oil might think about running it on engine oil hhmmm

i think maybe the car was set up toe out but i was thinking deflection under acceleration may bring the wheels inline maybe i'l go back to vmax and ask if he could set it slightly toe in...
as far as the rear goes its all stock and i think if i remember right it was slitly positive camber and the wheels were pretty inline i like the way it handles as i lift off i can prevoke alittle slide from the rear and if the front starts to understeer lifting tends to bring it inline so i'm pretty happy with the hadleing but its just straight line i'm worried i couldnt keep it flat out at avon or pod haha

Speeding is like masturbating, everyone does it, but not all of us film it and put it on the internet

[quote=fab,8th Oct, 2010]fuck off

Hi,
As you can see from all the different answers, there's lots of things that could cause the problem.
I should imagine the R1 engine and box is a lot lighter than the Mini so the front springs could be too hard and not keeping proper control over the suspension movement.
I'm no expert, the people selling the kit should know the best spring rate to use for your intended use of the car :)
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 20th Dec, 2007.

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

Have you got wide front wheels with loads of offset?
That was what caused mine to torque steer.
Allan

http://www.rabdunn.co.uk/

start weight training and fit a bigger steering wheel.
Regards
Dave

6x10 wellers and a 13" momo steeringwheel...
the engines only 130ish bhp there are plenty of more powerfull minis thats why i'm thinking there has to be something up...

Speeding is like masturbating, everyone does it, but not all of us film it and put it on the internet

[quote=fab,8th Oct, 2010]fuck off

sorry if o/t but im helping my best mate put an r1 in his mini.

do pro-motive solid mount the diff to the engine?

is it chain driven?

is the engine solid mounted to the subframe/car?

were fucking and farting about with sleeving driveshafts, and torque steer was a consideration and one weve been warned about, were hoping using a quaife (less snatch) will minimise this.

any pics?

cheers

joe

"Turbo's make torque, and torque makes fun"

"did you know you can toast potato waffles?"

Hi,
Joey .. Take a look on their site

Cheers,
Gavin :)

VEMs Authorised Installer / Re-seller. K head kits now available!

WB/EGT gauges. Click here for customers write-up

Visit www.doyouneedabrain.co.uk

My Mini build diary

whats the offset on the wellers ? i think this makes a lot of diference , i moved my wheels in 10mm each side and it made a big difference , you want around 20mm inset if poss .
regards
robert

heres a link to my tribulations !
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=148025

Edited by robert on 20th Dec, 2007.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

All this talk of diff's nearly made me ring swifty to buy a quaife! must resist...

7 degrees of caster is way too much with that diff. Try something like 3.5 and see if it makes a difference. You can always increase the -ve camber to compensate.

Fastest 998 mini in the world? 13.05 1/4 mile 106mph

Am i right in thinking the tran x isd is the plate type that will drag you about like a bastard anyway. ( all part of the fun if you ask me)
Think the wellers have a big offset ?

Start with the things that dont cost , if a mate has some other wheels try them up the road and like will said think its too much castor.

Rick

you dont appear to say what the front toe was set at,

carl

Edited by fastcarl on 20th Dec, 2007.

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

Can you tell me why "to much" castor will make a difference?
regards
Dave

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

right just found my bit of paper with the settings written down hope this makes sense
castor 5 degrees
camber 0.6 -ve
toe out 2mm
front left corner 340lbs
front right 400lbs
rear both 200lbs
rear camber 0.9+ve and 0.5+ve
toe in 2.5mm

yes the diff is a plate diff i have never driven a car with one before and was prepared for it to be a bit harsh but this is boarderline dangerous haha

the rear isnt adjustable, i guess what i'm asking is are there better settings i can ask for and the reasons why said settings would work better... dont want to wander in and ask for something to be done and say cos some geezer on the net told me so lol

cheers lee

Edited by supermotolee on 20th Dec, 2007.

Speeding is like masturbating, everyone does it, but not all of us film it and put it on the internet

[quote=fab,8th Oct, 2010]fuck off

Im running Wellers 10 X 6 and mine, doesn't stay in a straight line at all. They are a very large offset though!

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www.fusionfabs.co.uk



1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi

2mm toe out on the front seems a little unconventional. i always run a bit of toe in on fwd cars, parallel at least.

And are the weights you have quoted cornerweights or spring rates?

As for the oil, try an oil with friction modifiers in it we found that made the diff a lot more manageable for the looser of the lsds we run.

I'm afraid my area of expertise is more rear wheel drive single seaters only play on other stuff.

is the diff warmed up before you give it beens, if not try it first, how much overall wheel travel is there on the front,
2mm toe out is fine , do not have toe in ,
carl

WWW.FORCE-RACING.CO.UK PLEASE CLICK HERE

out of intrest how much driving would it take to warm the diff up?

when i was out the other night (10ish mile drive) it didnt seem to get any better throughout the journey

i've had a search for lsd on the site and reading through others comments on diff selection i'm thinking of ebaying this diff and going for a quaife atb, when i bought this the new quaife wasnt out so i'm running a semi helical cwp and its bloody noisey too lol

i really like the feel of the diff in the corners i can feel it pulling me into the corner but its just unusable in a straight line cant get the power down as i'm constantly fighting against the car

as far as wheel travel i dont know exactly but taking a quick look at the coilover i can see about an inch of damper rod before the damper body would hit its little buffer and its doesnt feel massivly stiff at the front end maybe its a touch over sprung...

Speeding is like masturbating, everyone does it, but not all of us film it and put it on the internet

[quote=fab,8th Oct, 2010]fuck off

out of intrest how much driving would it take to warm the diff up?

when i was out the other night (10ish mile drive) it didnt seem to get any better throughout the journey

i've had a search for lsd on the site and reading through others comments on diff selection i'm thinking of ebaying this diff and going for a quaife atb, when i bought this the new quaife wasnt out so i'm running a semi helical cwp and its bloody noisey too lol

i really like the feel of the diff in the corners i can feel it pulling me into the corner but its just unusable in a straight line cant get the power down as i'm constantly fighting against the car

as far as wheel travel i dont know exactly but taking a quick look at the coilover i can see about an inch of damper rod before the damper body would hit its little buffer and its doesnt feel massivly stiff at the front end maybe its a touch over sprung...

Speeding is like masturbating, everyone does it, but not all of us film it and put it on the internet

[quote=fab,8th Oct, 2010]fuck off