Fuel injected 'A' Series 998 with MS and sequential siamese code
Turbo Mini Forums

Happy new year everyone.

I thought it was about time to share with you all, the project I have been working on since late October, which as per the title of this thread is to fuel inject a 998 ‘A’ Series engine.
After my initial thread http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=319227 asking for advice on Fueling an A series with Injectors (and doing a lot of research) I decided to give it a go.
After some absolutely invaluable help, predominantly from Rod S, I’m pleased to say that yesterday at 3pm my project engine rather violently kicked into life, running on Injectors controlled by Megasquirt, using the sequential Siamese code.
I say violently because my temporary IAC was not in the correct position. Actually, as I have not yet got to a scrap yard to get one, the IAC in question was my Dad’s thumb. I forgot to block the hole for the IAC in the inlet manifold, so it was a case of going from cranking to 3.7k rpm in an instant. After standing watching in bewildered amazement for more than a few seconds, I turned the engine off and tried again with aforementioned thumb in hole. A steady 2100rpm from cold.
We eventually replaced the thumb with a plastic bung and ran the engine up for 25mins or so.
The build needs a lot of refinement, which now I have got the engine started, I can concentrate on.

It looks like Chaos, but it’s ordered chaos!






I had a few problems with the build of the board, but again thanks to Rod’s input and assistance, these problems were resolved. I think He mentioned in another thread problems with Megasquirt not being able to cope with a signal over 1400rpm. That put my build back weeks, and nearly consigned the whole thing to the back of the cupboard.
The main problems I have encountered with the install and configuration have been:
Setting the trigger wheel in the wrong position – missing tooth at TDC, instead of leading by 9 teeth.

losing my VR signal. After a lot of head scratching, I realised this happened every time I attached the timing strobe. So I threw that in the corner and relied on my eye sight.

Targus USB to serial lead is not compatible with Windows 7 x64. I had to change from windows x32 for testing at work, but never thought to test the USB to serial lead.
The signal from Megasquirt to laptop kept dropping out. So once I was up and running yesterday, there was not much I could do to alter settings or monitor the engine as the laptop could not reliably show me what was happening.
Trying to remember which were to 63lbs/hr and which were the 81lbs/hr injectors. No internet at the workshop, but luckily I had saved the injector specs to the laptop.
So, the next steps are to buy a strobe light, buy a USB to serial lead, buy an IAC and start tuning...
Then install in my clubman.

Edited by Graham T on 1st Jan, 2010.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Excellent news, another one running.

Late October to end December isn't bad - it took me over a year from ordering the Megasquirt to having the engine first start with injection.

And I have no doubt yours will be in the car testing on the road before mine !!!

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Happy New Year, done a good job there. :)

Well done.

What was the problem with the MS build?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Edited by Rod S on 1st Jan, 2010.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

It's looking good mate, hopefuly not long till it's in the car :)

Anyone any thoughts on the timing light issue? I'm Just looking at buying one, but I'm not sure whether the problem is related to noise from the timing light affecting the vr signal, hence buying a new one may not help?? Or am I better off looking at better shielding of the VR wiring. I am using the ford shielded cable that was attached to the VR sensor when I got it off the car. The timing light we have is ancient.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

I too use an ancient one (no external power, just a xenon tube put in series with one of the HT leads) and it's not been a problem.

However my VR is very sensitive to the R56 setting, requiring a completely different number of turns on the car to the JimStim (0-1 on the car and 7-9 on the JimStim).

Might be worth trying to find the optimum settings on the VR pots first before considering the cable shielding and a different timing light.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Good to see another engine running on the code.

Don't forget that the VR cable shielding should be grounded and only at the Megasquirt end.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

All is grounded as both Carl and Jean have said.
Something interesting. I know Rod has told me in the past of differences between R56 setting on the engine and when connected to JimStim, but I've just plugged my JImStim into the megasquirt and its working fine using the Engine settings of R56. That said, because of the problems I have with my USB - serial adaptor, I've not been able to optimise the R56 setting. As it is, it took the engine up to 4k rpm plus when I was running the carb, using MS for the ignition only.
I think first priority is serial adaptor, then I can see whats happening.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

That's a pity that the Targus USB adaptors do not work with Windows 7.

I was using two at the same time until recently. One on the MS and the other on the Innovate stuff.

Have you checked to see if there is an updated driver available?

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

A question on megalogviewer. I'm trying to work out how to get the second WBo2 log showing in megalogviewer. I've created a custon.ini file for tunerstudio
(Code: Select all
[Datalog]
entry = afr2, "AFR2", float, "%.2f")

and I get a field in megalogviewer, but the second WBo2 field is showing values as high as 51 (somethings). So can anyone tell me how do I change this to reflect the AFR I see in tunerstudio?

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

If you have the option to select "AFR2" for a graph output, then the data is being put into the .msl file by TS.

I suggest that you have a look in the .msl file with Excel. If you launch Excel and then tell it to open the .msl file, it will allow you to select to open it as a tab delimited file.

The AFR2 column is that last one in our logs. If these numbers are wrong, then the problem is how TS is recording it.

What O2 gauges are you using? Sometimes our LM-1 would read very high when things went very lean.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Thanks Paul, I've just worked out the problem. I am getting the correct data in megalogviewer, but Because of the communications problem with the serial adaptor, I am getting "spikes" in the data. With the graph sizing itself according to the data, my 14.9 and 14.7 (JimStim data) were tiny indistinguishable lines at the bottom and a whooping 51 making it all look incorrect.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Right, well you can edit the .msl with excel to get rid of spurious data.

You can also set the maximum and minimum Y scale values for each graph. It's a good idea to set the AFR scales the same, say 10 to 20, then you can see exactly how far apart they are. If you set the maximum to 20, say, the higher values will just be off screen.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

Thats better. Max values set.
I forgot to answer which widebands - 2 LC-1's
The Targus adaptors work fine with windows 7, as long as it is 32 bit. I have been using it fine throughout the MS build. I had to change to windows 7 64 bit for work and since then, the adaptor has not worked (at least I found out on Monday gone).
The only work around I had was to install a virtual PC in windows XP mode. Windows 7 allows USB pass through, so the drivers work this way, but communictions is intermitent, hence the problems I am seeing.
So, I'll see If I can pick up a Belkin adaptor tomorrow. I believe that they use the Prolific chipset, and I know a 64bit, win 7 driver is avaliable from prolific.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

Congratulations

I've now got my Serial adaptor and it works fine. (Maplins)
The second LC-1 is still in the Turbo, but due to go on the test engine tonight (if I don't get snowed in at work) so that I can actually get some usable data out and start tuning.
however, I'm having start up problems. I think its a lack of fuel.. A little fuel in the throttle throat is enough to start it (hot or cold engine), then it runs fine. A little rich, afr of 9.9 at 1700rpm on the inner cylinders. Here’s the first log I got off the running engine:

Am I right in assuming that the "cranking PV" is a percentage of the ms value shown in the required fuel window? I'm just not sure how high I can take the "cranking PV" value?

And Finally, a question regarding programmable outputs.
I have removed the fan from the water pump pulley and have an electric Subaru fan ready to install, but before I wire it up and Modify the MSquirt, I just want to make sure that I can use the warmup LED circuit to drive a relay without needing to change the Transistor.
I was going to jumper across from R27 to SPR3, but reading this: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/spare.htm I'm not sure whether the existing transistor can take the current?

Edited by Graham T on 5th Jan, 2010.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

I'm having problems starting mine in cold weather. Once it catches it is fine.

You can either increase the priming pulse width or the cranking pulse width (displayed as PV but really PW). Priming pulse is in mSecs but cranking pulse width is a percentage.

I was also thinking of reducing the cranking RPM setting. I think that the starter has to get the engine to cranking rpm before it fires the injectors. Mine is set at 300rpm and it struggles.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

My crank speed it set at 270. I'll try lower. I see 248rpm spinning it over.

A Nice new IAC has just landed on my desk. I thought I was being clever and buy a new one to save time with going to the scrap yard, But, yet again I forgot about an electrical plug to connect it!

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675

The "LED" transistors (2N3904) are only rated at 200mA and 625mW whereas the fuel pump relay drive or idle relay drive transistors (ZTX450) are rated at 1A and 1W. So I would suggest swapping to a ZTX450 as per the circuit in the manual. Don't forget the flyback diode as shown as it's a relay and highly inductive.

I can't remember the details but there was a bug in the code over cranking pulsewidth - I had exactly the same problem - but I thought it was fixed in the latest release. Find Jean's post on the MS-Extra forum.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

The link is here, bug on the priming pulse.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=300513

EDIT - also check the cranking injection timing, the default timings may be wrong for siamese. I stress "MAY"..... there were a few timing figures in the default msq that were a hang over from the semi-sequential code and I can't remember if this was one of them and, if it was, whether the default has subsequently been changed........

Edited by Rod S on 5th Jan, 2010.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???

Don't change the cranking RPM setting to a value lower that the actual cranking RPM. This is used to go from the cranking values to the running values (for timing and fueling). It would defeat the purpose of the cranking values and would make it more difficult to find a good starting setup.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

The cranking injection timing is set at 90deg for both timing 1 and timing 2.

I'll play with the priming pulse width and cranking pulse width percentage later and leave the cranking RPM setting above the actual RPM.

’77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675