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| Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > EFI Testing - Dyno Day 6: 1.5:1 Ratio rockers | |||||||
 604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
26th Dec, 2017 at 08:33:32pm
As, yet, I have not got any clear and reliable data for any Dyno Sessions with the EFI setup.
Edited by Graham T on 14th Sep, 2019. ’77 Clubman build thread
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224 Posts Member #: 9987 Senior Member Amsterdam |
26th Dec, 2017 at 10:42:59pm
What a great post!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to generate all this data in the first place and then share it on here in full detail. After all siamese horor stories I am surprised to see AFR inners and outers close enough together to not give it much bother....
Edited by Evoderby on 26th Dec, 2017. |
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 8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
26th Dec, 2017 at 11:06:32pm
Theres no reason why EFi will give you more power than Carb, just the potential to use EFi to maximise the 5-port potential without the limitation of factory style manifolds. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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1267 Posts Member #: 831 Post Whore Montreal, Canada |
26th Dec, 2017 at 11:38:46pm
On 26th Dec, 2017 Paul S said:
Theres no reason why EFi will give you more power than Carb, ... Yeah but it's probably easier to optimise fueling through a few keystrokes rather than through needle shape, spring strength and oil viscosity. |
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 4619 Posts Member #: 20 My sister is so fit I won't show anyone her picture Lake District |
26th Dec, 2017 at 11:44:21pm
It's nice to see folk still sharing things like this & nice data.
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3569 Posts Member #: 655 Post Whore Northern Ireland |
27th Dec, 2017 at 12:05:05am
Where were you taking pressure from for your readings and then the Innovate ? Same location ? different location ?
9.85 @ 145mph
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
27th Dec, 2017 at 08:57:33am
On 26th Dec, 2017 Evoderby said:
…After all siamese horor stories I am surprised to see AFR inners and outers close enough together to not give it much bother... Me too. I had expected to see the AFR’s 1 or more leaner on the outer cylinders with the Carb installed. In fact there seems to be a trend on my logs above toward the Inners being lean. This I have always seen with the injection, hence a big part of why the Carb was strapped on. On 26th Dec, 2017 Evoderby said:
…As far as injection is concerned, what type are you planning on running e-carb or siamese code port injection? I’ll go back to the Port injection. It works well, I just have to make a manifold that will hold the staged injectors without biasing for inner or outer ports and, obviously, fits in the space I have without getting the fuel pipes/ injectors too close to heat. On 26th Dec, 2017 Paul S said:
Theres no reason why EFi will give you more power than Carb, just the potential to use EFi to maximise the 5-port potential without the limitation of factory style manifolds. Paul, I’m not sure if this was in response to something I wrote above or not, but going into this Dyno session I never really had any expectations on more or less power. I think originally, a few years back I would have expected a well set up EFI system to actually give better power for less boost or higher CR – ie, balancing any offset between the inner and outer cylinder AFR’s would allow more ignition timing advance, or a higher CR to be run, because there would be less chance of detonation on the weaker running pair. Now, I’m not so sure. Ultimately, this Carb session was due to the fact I wanted to see for myself how my Engine looked from an AFR balance point of view. I was beginning to question exactly what was happening based on the injection timing strategy I am using, which it not exactly in keeping with what might have been expected: I’m using very low Injection timing advance with little offset between inner and outer timing values and only one fuel VE table to get AFR distribution pretty much as close as can be seen with the Carb – I’ll find a log I have from back in the summer and post it up later. The other thing I wanted to see was why I was having problems balancing the AFR’s above 5800RPM without having to start retarding the injection timing. On the road the engine seemed to also be flat once I got up to 6100RPM. I think this Dyno session with the Carb on has confirmed it’s not necessarily the EFI causing the issues, rather as suspected, my cam choice and perhaps cam timing being the limiting factor. On 27th Dec, 2017 stevieturbo said:
Where were you taking pressure from for your readings and then the Innovate ? Same location ? different location ? I have two pressure tapings in the manifold: one is actually what would normally be the brake servo take off, this was going to the ECU The other is about 30mm off centre towards No4 cylinder, this is the signal for the Dump Valve and also where the Innovate was getting its signal. I’m not exactly sure now at what point we changed it during the session, I think after the 8PSI run, but we blocked off the centre tapping and Tee’d the ECU and Dump valve/Innovate off of the same tapping to eliminate any potential differences that there might have been. They do seem strangely different....and even stranger, different at different times. Not just an offset for example. Yes, that’s where I am now stumped. I’ve run static tests on the signal pipes with a syringe to produce pressure and also used another ECU along side to do a comparison. Apart from a slight 2 – 3Kpa offset between them, I’m not seeing anything major. 
This was on a cold engine… could there be a leak in the ECU signal pipe or maybe cracked MAP sensor body again which is only showing up once the environment gets hot? There is most definitely a leak somewhere in though, because with the previous Dyno Session, the Innovate trace was pretty much spot on with the Post intercooler Pressure trace. Example: 
Edited by Graham T on 27th Dec, 2017. ’77 Clubman build thread
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
27th Dec, 2017 at 09:40:28am
This is a sample from a log file from over the summer
’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Dec, 2017 at 09:45:16am
Just read it through properly. Great work.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Dec, 2017 at 09:57:10am
Just found my old log of AFRs with carburetor.
Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Dec, 2017 at 05:27:58pm
This looks about right to me.
On 27th Dec, 2017 Graham T said:
This is a sample from a log file from over the summer 
This was a 4th Gear pull on the road. MPI manifold, so no staging, 840cc/min Siemens Deka short style injectors. AFR balance is not perfect in this sample, but it was really to illustrate the Injection timings I needed (2 green traces on the bottom graph) to run to get a fairly close AFR Balance. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
27th Dec, 2017 at 06:41:02pm
No need to apologise Paul.
’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
27th Dec, 2017 at 06:55:01pm
That data was from a Innovate digital data stream so didn't pick up TPS. It would have been full throttle.
Edited by Paul S on 27th Dec, 2017. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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485 Posts Member #: 149 Senior Member Alberta, Canada |
27th Dec, 2017 at 07:56:14pm
Hi Graham.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. |
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 (2)[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/150672766@N03/]Rod Sugden[/url], on Fli) 5988 Posts Member #: 2024 Formally Retired Rural Suffolk |
28th Dec, 2017 at 07:37:26am
Also emerging from the Xmas alcohol fog.....
Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ??? |
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
28th Dec, 2017 at 09:51:09am
On 27th Dec, 2017 Doodmeister said:
Hi Graham. Are you able to graph the Sensor Supply voltages to check if the ECU isn't having a hard time keeping the reference voltages stable through out the RPM range. Also are you running any form of Knock control on the IGN timing which could be effecting things with background noise. Merry Christmas Karl. I’m not aware of any way to do this from within TunerStudio, and I’m not sure how this could be achieved externally. But if there were issues with the 5V ref from the MS2, I’m thinking I would see similar irregularities with TPS, CLT and MAT? On 28th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
Only considering the MAP issue for the moment (and now seeing the plots), without knowing how the Innovate "reads" it I wonder if the difference is down to the sample window/angle used by the MS2 ECU ? This is also a suggestion that Robert has made, but as yet, I’ve not had time to investigate/ read up on the sample window settings. On 28th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
A quick search on the MS-E forums suggests that TunerStudio's high speed logger can be selected to MAP and a screenshot of that from a running engine might explain the difference. I can't actually see that TS feature at the moment but that's probably because I'm not "connected" to an ECU at my desk, weather permitting I might try outside later. I’ve not connected the Laptop to the ECU, but it looks like that option is only available for the later versions of the MS2 firmware. If you load up the MS2 –Extra-Example project there are a lot more high speed logger channels available than I have, MAP being one of them. The firmware version reported for the example project is comms330N2. If I change to my serial310 ini, then those options are gone. On 28th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:
Another interesting comparison might be to connect one of your IOx based pressure sensors to the same tapping on the manifold and compare "MAP" to that as the IOx view should be a similar "average" to the Innovate way of looking at it. This I can do, but it will only be static testing for a while. There is too much ice and frozen snow on the roads to take a run out. ’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Dec, 2017 at 11:23:30am
This is very interesting:
Edited by Paul S on 28th Dec, 2017. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
28th Dec, 2017 at 11:51:47am
Paul,
Edited by Graham T on 28th Dec, 2017. ’77 Clubman build thread
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 6743 Posts Member #: 828 Post Whore uranus |
28th Dec, 2017 at 12:39:56pm
maybe the ve is dropping as the boost is dropping so giving a flat maf/bhp line ,if boost was held level at the same level as 5k ,the bhp would rise like in the 4.5 psi runs ? Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM |
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Dec, 2017 at 01:11:26pm
I think a plot of MAF divided by MAP and RPM would give you the shape of the VE curve. That may show up something. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
28th Dec, 2017 at 02:31:32pm
So this is just MAF in kg/hr divided by MAP in Kpa?
Edited by Graham T on 28th Dec, 2017. ’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Dec, 2017 at 02:58:00pm
Err... you need to divide those numbers by engine speed.
Edited by Paul S on 28th Dec, 2017. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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604 Posts Member #: 1106 Post Whore Hungerford, Berks |
28th Dec, 2017 at 07:17:48pm
Thanks Paul.
Edited by Graham T on 28th Dec, 2017. ’77 Clubman build thread
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8604 Posts Member #: 573 Formerly Axel Podland |
28th Dec, 2017 at 08:15:58pm
Apart from the jagged nature of the line. That does not look too bad. Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
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485 Posts Member #: 149 Senior Member Alberta, Canada |
29th Dec, 2017 at 07:02:19pm
Yes Graham your correct you would see issues or noise on all the related sensors of the 5vref is unstable. From looking at the graphs it appears that the IGN is a direct inverse of the MAP after 4000rpm. Is the IGN being clipped/controlled by the MAP signal in the ECU ? Even the AFR's show some of the same peaks as the other signals so i'd have to think you have some what of a noise issue.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. |
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