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Home > A-Series EFI / Injection > EFI Testing - Dyno Day 6: 1.5:1 Ratio rockers

Graham T

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Hungerford, Berks

As, yet, I have not got any clear and reliable data for any Dyno Sessions with the EFI setup.
Other than my original Dyno session at Slrak back in August 2015, I've only been back to the Dyno once, and although I do have some logs, they are not really power runs and not that comparative with the data I have just got from the car with the Carb.
once I have some better EFI data, I will add it to this thread.

After what has so far been a trying year with the Mini, I finally managed just before Christmas to get back up to ďsomewhere just outside OxfordĒ for a Dyno session with Robert, this time with Carb strapped on, rather than the fuel injection.

The idea was to see how the Engine performs with a Carburettor, rather than the EFI.
The reason behind this was mostly to see what the engine would be capable of with a Carb as opposed to the EFI and to get some logging of the Engine to compare with the EFI data I already have.

First up was a 4.4PSI run




Next an 8PSI run




Then @ 11PSI




And finally @ 12.5PSI






This is where I will point out that those Boost pressures quoted above might be slightly out.
When Robert told me the Peak Power for the last run, I was looking at my logs and thinking peak power will be around 5800RPM or so, which would mean 11PSI.
Wishful thinkingÖ

Apparently I still have some sort of leak going on somewhere, or another damaged MAP sensor, or something, as we saw and logged differences in MAP between the MS2 and Roberts Innovate equipment.

The above is the reason for the fact you can see two sets of different MAP data in each of the below graphs, which have a little more information on them:



















After a lot of work to get all the data consolidated, Iíve also managed to create a set of Graphs for Pressures:

















So, at this point I have to figure out what is happening with my MAP and I also have to work out where my Low down Boost has disappeared.

All told though, a pretty successful couple of hours, and a fairly good set of data to compare once I get the Injection setup back on the car.

Edited by Graham T on 14th Sep, 2019.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Evoderby

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Amsterdam

What a great post!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to generate all this data in the first place and then share it on here in full detail. After all siamese horor stories I am surprised to see AFR inners and outers close enough together to not give it much bother....

Again thanks for posting. As far as injection is concerned, what type are you planning on running e-carb or siamese code port injection?

Edited by Evoderby on 26th Dec, 2017.


Paul S

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Podland

Theres no reason why EFi will give you more power than Carb, just the potential to use EFi to maximise the 5-port potential without the limitation of factory style manifolds.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


jbelanger

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On 26th Dec, 2017 Paul S said:
Theres no reason why EFi will give you more power than Carb, ...


Yeah but it's probably easier to optimise fueling through a few keystrokes rather than through needle shape, spring strength and oil viscosity.

http://www.jbperf.com/


Turbo Phil

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It's nice to see folk still sharing things like this & nice data.

Phil.

WWW.TURBO-MINI.COM


stevieturbo

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Where were you taking pressure from for your readings and then the Innovate ? Same location ? different location ?

They do seem strangely different....and even stranger, different at different times. Not just an offset for example.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will


Graham T

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On 26th Dec, 2017 Evoderby said:

ÖAfter all siamese horor stories I am surprised to see AFR inners and outers close enough together to not give it much bother...

Me too.
I had expected to see the AFRís 1 or more leaner on the outer cylinders with the Carb installed.
In fact there seems to be a trend on my logs above toward the Inners being lean. This I have always seen with the injection, hence a big part of why the Carb was strapped on.



On 26th Dec, 2017 Evoderby said:

ÖAs far as injection is concerned, what type are you planning on running e-carb or siamese code port injection?

Iíll go back to the Port injection. It works well, I just have to make a manifold that will hold the staged injectors without biasing for inner or outer ports and, obviously, fits in the space I have without getting the fuel pipes/ injectors too close to heat.

On 26th Dec, 2017 Paul S said:
Theres no reason why EFi will give you more power than Carb, just the potential to use EFi to maximise the 5-port potential without the limitation of factory style manifolds.


Paul, Iím not sure if this was in response to something I wrote above or not, but going into this Dyno session I never really had any expectations on more or less power.
I think originally, a few years back I would have expected a well set up EFI system to actually give better power for less boost or higher CR Ė ie, balancing any offset between the inner and outer cylinder AFRís would allow more ignition timing advance, or a higher CR to be run, because there would be less chance of detonation on the weaker running pair.
Now, Iím not so sure.
Ultimately, this Carb session was due to the fact I wanted to see for myself how my Engine looked from an AFR balance point of view.
I was beginning to question exactly what was happening based on the injection timing strategy I am using, which it not exactly in keeping with what might have been expected:
Iím using very low Injection timing advance with little offset between inner and outer timing values and only one fuel VE table to get AFR distribution pretty much as close as can be seen with the Carb Ė Iíll find a log I have from back in the summer and post it up later.

The other thing I wanted to see was why I was having problems balancing the AFRís above 5800RPM without having to start retarding the injection timing. On the road the engine seemed to also be flat once I got up to 6100RPM.
I think this Dyno session with the Carb on has confirmed itís not necessarily the EFI causing the issues, rather as suspected, my cam choice and perhaps cam timing being the limiting factor.

On 27th Dec, 2017 stevieturbo said:
Where were you taking pressure from for your readings and then the Innovate ? Same location ? different location ?


I have two pressure tapings in the manifold:
one is actually what would normally be the brake servo take off, this was going to the ECU
The other is about 30mm off centre towards No4 cylinder, this is the signal for the Dump Valve and also where the Innovate was getting its signal.

Iím not exactly sure now at what point we changed it during the session, I think after the 8PSI run, but we blocked off the centre tapping and Teeíd the ECU and Dump valve/Innovate off of the same tapping to eliminate any potential differences that there might have been.

They do seem strangely different....and even stranger, different at different times. Not just an offset for example.
Yes, thatís where I am now stumped.
Iíve run static tests on the signal pipes with a syringe to produce pressure and also used another ECU along side to do a comparison.
Apart from a slight 2 Ė 3Kpa offset between them, Iím not seeing anything major.



This was on a cold engineÖ could there be a leak in the ECU signal pipe or maybe cracked MAP sensor body again which is only showing up once the environment gets hot?



There is most definitely a leak somewhere in though, because with the previous Dyno Session, the Innovate trace was pretty much spot on with the Post intercooler Pressure trace.
Example:



Edited by Graham T on 27th Dec, 2017.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Graham T

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This is a sample from a log file from over the summer




This was a 4th Gear pull on the road.
MPI manifold, so no staging, 840cc/min Siemens Deka short style injectors.
AFR balance is not perfect in this sample, but it was really to illustrate the Injection timings I needed (2 green traces on the bottom graph) to run to get a fairly close AFR Balance.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Paul S

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Just read it through properly. Great work.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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Just found my old log of AFRs with carburetor.



Over 10 years ago !!!

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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This looks about right to me.

As you know, I use the single pulse method and run injection timing of about 90-130 degrees to get the fuel to the cylinder around TDC. If and when I go pulse per cylinder I will subtract 90 degrees from my table as a starting point, so I will end up with 0-40 degrees, not much different to you.

Why did you think this was not to be expected?

Apologies for my earlier response. I couldn't see through the Xmas alcohol fog :) and though you were comparing powers rather than AFR balance etc.


On 27th Dec, 2017 Graham T said:
This is a sample from a log file from over the summer




This was a 4th Gear pull on the road.
MPI manifold, so no staging, 840cc/min Siemens Deka short style injectors.
AFR balance is not perfect in this sample, but it was really to illustrate the Injection timings I needed (2 green traces on the bottom graph) to run to get a fairly close AFR Balance.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Graham T

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No need to apologise Paul.
For some reason I thought you were running much more injection advance than that for single pulse mode.
Iím also pretty sure Rod is running a fair amount more Advance than me in Dual pulse mode.


Just out of interest, and I know itís a long time ago, so I doubt you still have the data, but what sort of Throttle position would you have been at for each of those gear changes?
Itís interesting to see for the first 2 gears your Inner Cylinders going leaner than Outers at what looks to be different revís, whereas gear 3(?) looks to be pretty much steady state, with Outers much leaner.
Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere 10 years back, Iíve read through all of the EFI threads on here, but it was long ago.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Paul S

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That data was from a Innovate digital data stream so didn't pick up TPS. It would have been full throttle.

It's all down to the revs. Inners richer than outers up to around 5000rpm where they equalised.

I used an HIF44 on an N.A. MG Metro inlet. Exhaust was a cast metro LCB style manifold and dual widebands in the vertical legs, still in use to this day on my lads car. SW5 cam, standard head.

Edited by Paul S on 27th Dec, 2017.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Doodmeister

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Hi Graham.

Are you able to graph the Sensor Supply voltages to check if the ECU isn't having a hard time keeping the reference voltages stable through out the RPM range. Also are you running any form of Knock control on the IGN timing which could be effecting things with background noise.

Merry Christmas
Karl.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.


Rod S

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Also emerging from the Xmas alcohol fog.....

Only considering the MAP issue for the moment (and now seeing the plots), without knowing how the Innovate "reads" it I wonder if the difference is down to the sample window/angle used by the MS2 ECU ?

I have never really considered the effect of this setting (in MS) and just left it as the default but presumably the Innovate as Robert sees it has no knowledge of absolute crank position so it must be a very broad average of manifold pressure whereas the MS is reading the pressure at a specific point (and time window) in the engine cycle, the effect of which probably varies with load and RPM.

A quick search on the MS-E forums suggests that TunerStudio's high speed logger can be selected to MAP and a screenshot of that from a running engine might explain the difference. I can't actually see that TS feature at the moment but that's probably because I'm not "connected" to an ECU at my desk, weather permitting I might try outside later.

Another interesting comparison might be to connect one of your IOx based pressure sensors to the same tapping on the manifold and compare "MAP" to that as the IOx view should be a similar "average" to the Innovate way of looking at it.

SchrŲdinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Graham T

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Hungerford, Berks


On 27th Dec, 2017 Doodmeister said:
Hi Graham.

Are you able to graph the Sensor Supply voltages to check if the ECU isn't having a hard time keeping the reference voltages stable through out the RPM range. Also are you running any form of Knock control on the IGN timing which could be effecting things with background noise.

Merry Christmas
Karl.


Iím not aware of any way to do this from within TunerStudio, and Iím not sure how this could be achieved externally.

But if there were issues with the 5V ref from the MS2, Iím thinking I would see similar irregularities with TPS, CLT and MAT?




On 28th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:

Only considering the MAP issue for the moment (and now seeing the plots), without knowing how the Innovate "reads" it I wonder if the difference is down to the sample window/angle used by the MS2 ECU ?

This is also a suggestion that Robert has made, but as yet, Iíve not had time to investigate/ read up on the sample window settings.

On 28th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:

A quick search on the MS-E forums suggests that TunerStudio's high speed logger can be selected to MAP and a screenshot of that from a running engine might explain the difference. I can't actually see that TS feature at the moment but that's probably because I'm not "connected" to an ECU at my desk, weather permitting I might try outside later.


Iíve not connected the Laptop to the ECU, but it looks like that option is only available for the later versions of the MS2 firmware.
If you load up the MS2 ĖExtra-Example project there are a lot more high speed logger channels available than I have, MAP being one of them. The firmware version reported for the example project is comms330N2. If I change to my serial310 ini, then those options are gone.

On 28th Dec, 2017 Rod S said:

Another interesting comparison might be to connect one of your IOx based pressure sensors to the same tapping on the manifold and compare "MAP" to that as the IOx view should be a similar "average" to the Innovate way of looking at it.


This I can do, but it will only be static testing for a while.
There is too much ice and frozen snow on the roads to take a run out.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Paul S

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This is very interesting:


Notice how MAP, MAF and BHP start to level off over 5000rpm. MAP and BHP get a little erratic.

Makes me think that the MAP signal is getting recorded correctly by the ECU. Something else is holding the engine back. Are you using the Metro Turbo exhaust manifold?

I guess that the Innovate MAP sensor is connected by a long tube which is damping out the lumps.

Edited by Paul S on 28th Dec, 2017.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Graham T

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Paul,
I had put this down to the boost controller doing its thing, but honestly Iím not sure
I have to admit I forgot to replace the restrictor pills in the boost controller signal pipes when I changed over to the remote turbo, so assumed I was maxíd out on controlling the WG actuator.

This was at 100% boost duty, hence I thought this was just the boost spiking and then levelling out.
Iím not sure if the pre turbine exhaust pressures in the ďPressure comparisonĒ graphs above indicates anything?

No, not a Metro Turbo Exhaust manifold, but my home made remote Turbo Manifold.

Yes, The innovate is connect by a long pipe with 6mm ID, so I think there is a lot of Damping.

Edited by Graham T on 28th Dec, 2017.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


robert

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uranus

maybe the ve is dropping as the boost is dropping so giving a flat maf/bhp line ,if boost was held level at the same level as 5k ,the bhp would rise like in the 4.5 psi runs ?

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM


Paul S

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Podland

I think a plot of MAF divided by MAP and RPM would give you the shape of the VE curve. That may show up something.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Graham T

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So this is just MAF in kg/hr divided by MAP in Kpa?



Edit: Incorrect Graphs removed

Edited by Graham T on 28th Dec, 2017.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Paul S

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Err... you need to divide those numbers by engine speed.

VE ∝ MAF / (MAP * RPM)

EDIT: Corect math symbol for proportional

Edited by Paul S on 28th Dec, 2017.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Graham T

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Thanks Paul.

Revised Graphs representing VE Curve:





Edited by Graham T on 28th Dec, 2017.

í77 Clubman build thread
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=618189

Siamese 5 port EFI testing
http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=611675


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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Apart from the jagged nature of the line. That does not look too bad.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Doodmeister

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Alberta, Canada

Yes Graham your correct you would see issues or noise on all the related sensors of the 5vref is unstable. From looking at the graphs it appears that the IGN is a direct inverse of the MAP after 4000rpm. Is the IGN being clipped/controlled by the MAP signal in the ECU ? Even the AFR's show some of the same peaks as the other signals so i'd have to think you have some what of a noise issue.

Also the graph at 12.5psi almost leads me to think you may have detonation as the graphed lines are flat lining and the AFR's are dropping rapidly. Did you have any EGT sensors you could look at.

I've not run any of the MS ECU's myself as I'm more familiar with Pectel and GEMS and both like shielded signal/sensor wiring to help with noise.

All the best in 2018.
Karl.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

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