Turbo EFI setup Off the Shelf
Turbo Mini Forums

Hello people,

From another post, there seems to be interest in a possible definitive fuel injection setup for a Mini. The aim of this post is to guage interest - who wants what, and how.

The idea is to have a system to avoid all the hassles with SUs, calibration and rolling roading.. obviously I'm in Malta so I'm pretty much useless, except maybe for getting things a bit organised.

STEP ONE is to make sure of what everyone wants - the more people are interested, the less it's gonna cost us, so this kit must be as universal as possible.

The general idea would be:

crank-sensor + Emerald ECU
multi-point fuel injection
T2/ T25 turbo, possibly on Mirage setup - for faster spool and minimum bulkhead mods...

We could possibly save on rolling road time by having the ECU calculate the fuel mixture by using an airflow / temperature/ density sensor in the inlet, and a lambda sensor in the exhaust. If it can compensate for all the variables, then a rolling road session would then be more of a formality.

I think that most people would save a lot of pain and blow-ups this way, and in the end have a more professional, reliable and powerful setup on their Mini.

Unless someone has the facilities, I think I can get a contact in the UK with someone who has a flowbench / engine dyno to test this setup. I might even persuade him to perfect a cylinder head for this application...

This is our chance to make a REAL difference in Mini history - enthusiasts who manage to do something the factory would have never imagined! :cool:

Who's with us?

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

Sounds good on paper. However thinking that you can get rid of rolling road time is not possible. Even with all the sensors you mention, the ECU needs a map to use as a reference to look up the correct injection timings and values for whatever. In order to define this (and the associated ignition map) you will still need rolling road time. In addition, any small change in exhaust or cylinder head, valve sizes etc would mean the map created would not work effectively on the different engine, like swapping an SU from one engine to another, it will not be optimal for both.
The maps created by the factory assume (quite correctly) that all the engines are going to be almost exactly the same. In the realms of home-built engines, this is not going to happen.
All the best with making the effort, but if it was as simple as you make out, surely someone would have done it by now? To get this right enough to be able to market it would require YEARS of development, and THOUSANDS of ££££.
Good luck though and top marks for thinking through something different and pioneering!

Edited by Tom Fenton on 8th Jun, 2005.

There seems to me (with my limited Knowledge!) to be only one route to this solution, and that is to go to a head with seperate inlet ports, the cheapest purpose built head is the AKM 7 port which has the benefit of a std turbo exhaust system, or to find a head rom somthing else (like the BMW K1100 bike head)

In all fairness we get very few stories of blow ups on here!!

But good post :)

Alex

AlexF

Yes I agree, the only real problems people have had, have been fairly tired old engines that had not been rebuilt giving up the ghost? Well what do you expect? And most people who had this were not suprised and knew it would probably happen at some point

All very true people... Re the rolling road avoidance, true you cannot do much about it, unfortunately (we dont have any in Malta, so we're used to working without them). The idea actually is to use as many off-the-shelf parts as possible (eg. Cosworth injectors, Emerald ECU, Mini mpi fuel tank + pump, sensors from other vehicles, Mirage turbo manifold) which would leave us with very few bits to be fabricated - i.e. inlet manifold. Then we get to the software part - that's where previous experience of some people here comes handy. Couple this knowledge with some dyno time Some tuners will be interested because they can then optimise (and sell) a head for this setup...

I've brought up this idea over here because it's got sensibile people who don't simply strap on aturbo on a knackered low-comp A+till it goes boom...

We're people who want sensible power for sensible money...

The 7-port idea could be good, but it limits the number of people who can afford this conversion... I've got some form of trade discount with Mini Sport (the new owners of the head), so maybe I can sort something out... but expect a BIG bonnet bulge if we use that one!

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

lol!

"it's got sensibile people who don't simply strap on aturbo on a knackered low-comp A+till it goes boom... "

Ooops! That what I did from my racer ! lol

Alex

AlexF

I really don't think there is that much interest to be honest - not when you start adding up all the costs involved.
If you want to get closer to this point, get yourself a megajolt ECU and play with mapped ignition. Hopefully - maybe - things will evolve in the near future re EFI

Edited by turbodave16v on 8th Jun, 2005.

You can get the 7 port and a set of 45's in with no bonnet bulge. if running injection, you could use shorter throttle bodies and still have room for a plenum. But in all honesty a single injector should be easier to setup and still give good running due to less overlap on a turbo motor, the fueling issues are more problematic as cams get "hotter" Just set the mixture with a lambda sensor. I'd be more worried about gearbox reliability than sorting out the engine fueling.

AlexF

I've heard gearbox reliability is quite good with no pistons? LOL!!!

Point taken...

I meant sorting the fueling to the point of putting in injection rather than a trusty SU set up correctly.

How about seting up your own rolling road or engine dyno in malta? that might solve the problem!

Mini13 - why on earth would you bother with throttle bodIES on a 7 - or even 8 - port turbo engine?

You'd just make a single plenum inlet, with a single throttle body in the appropriate location. You'd also then run FOUR injectors - one in each inlet tract on batch injection. Job done with any of the aftermarket ECU's and even Megasquish thqat are currently available. Trying to use a SINGLE injector will need a very large single injector, a wet manifold, and basically a system little better than an SU on a siamesed inlet head!

OK, so who would be interested in a 7-port? Maybe I'ld twist Minisport's arm a little and get a good discount on a big order...

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

Worth a try. Although in the past they wouldn't even send me a free bloody sticker with an order. Demon Tweeks are the same.

Dave, sorry wasn't being very clear was I,

I meant a single injector on a 5 port, as a replacement for an SU, to eliminate calibration by needle's

re the bodies Malta was talking about using as many of the shelf parts as possible hence the bodies, but yes your way is better.

While we're on the topic of intakes, does anyone have a flow figure for the metro turbo intake manifold? I've never seen any figure's for this, and i've always thought it looks a bit restrictive where it bends up at he head face to go round the exhaust manifold.

Dave and carl austin did put a MG metro and Mg Turbo inlet on a flow bench, I recall the results being supprisingly close, but I'm sure dave or carl will be along shortly with more details

Team Racing

Thanks jimster,

I found the thread with that info, jolly interesting reading, i would have expected more difference too.

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=512

please let me know on the size of a 7port discount, im fancying one but doubt i can afford it at the mo

I'll check. I usually manage something like 10%... but they're still developing the head so no prices are out yet.

Mark

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(

I cant reveal the source, but he's a very well-known Mini tuner. However, he has connections with MS's competitor, so he could be slightly biased... read the Vizard article on the 7-port and it looks promising nonetheless... I'll have a word with Minisport and we'll see...

I donated, but somehow didn't get the label! :(