Oil. You should read this (but get a brew first - there is a lot to take in)!!!
Turbo Mini Forums

This information was just posted on the Spridgetlist. I know Peter1071 mentioned something like this before, but this is built up from the input of several experienced and knowledgable folks... Of course, a lot of it is US based stuff, but the comments on diesel oils is pretty interesting, and probably applies :)







This page has been created to provide information about a serious deficiency in modern oils. The first word of this came in the form of a posting on the UKMGBB by someone named Scott from Oregon. He posted the following article, written by Keith Ansell:

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OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!

By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.

From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.

Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.

For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.

If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.

Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596

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More:

At this time, late October 2006, it appears that our old staple, Castrol, has reduced the ZDDP in GTX to about half what it used to be. The safest bet right now seems to be either the use of Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline VR1. Today I purchased 7 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for $2.79/quart.

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More from Keith Ansell:


Oil is Killing our cars Part II

Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to “dump” Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn’t really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
#6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok.
Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

We’ll keep you apprised of any new findings! Happy motoring for now!

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Edited by turbodave16v on 5th Nov, 2006.

very good information, thanks dave.
I would like to point that motorcycle oils are not concerned with the phenomen as they have these very important high pressure additives, and as we also use engine shared gearbox oil it's best to use this sort of oil to protect gears and bearings.

Very interesting reading. Thanx for the info.

Hi,
Kind of worring that I've not heard nowt about it, or is the UK miles behind?
I imagine this will also apply to OHC setups with flat tappets, maybe more so?
B O C .. It won't be a problem just use the running in oil all year, drive normally!
On the subject of motor cycles is seems to be the norm to put fully syn in at the first service (600 miles)
I had to specify I didn't want that in my engine!
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 5th Nov, 2006.

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Interesting...

Must admit, that when I run my Mini, and I did do pretty high miles considering the spec and abuse it took...the oil I used for the majority of its life was plain old Duckhams Q.

Eventually I had cause to strip the engine with perhaps 30-40k on it, and I was amazed to see the engine in superb condition inside.
Some of the bearings had little areas that appeared to be crushed ( small start like pattern as if something had hit that area ) but otherwise, they were perfect.
Gearchanges were always good...generally I'd say the oil was doing a great job. I did change it quite often though, and did run an oil cooler.

For the latter part of the cars life with the 2nd engine, I used Castrol RS 10/60 synthetic. Ive never stripped that engine though, as its still in one piece.
Even the Synthetic RS smells nice when it burns a little

I recall reading an article in Mini World some years ago, where the mag crew were taking their 16v Mini on a road trip. The need arose for an oil top up, and all they could find was diesel oil. They used this then a problem arose. The additives in the oil apparently caused frothing when used in the trans.
Dont recall the outcome, I just remember reading that bit, and that they did say using a diesel oil in a Mini wasnt a good idea.


Strange the article doesnt mention Ester based oils such as Motul ?? Ive been using it in my engines recently ( non-mini ) and its pretty good. I have never heard a bad report about Motul oils in any engine.
No idea if they are API approved or not.....I'd guess not given they are a more performance/race orientated oil.

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

This is what Peter said, just to save searching and to bring this all together.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

So, onyone know what the crack is with Castrol GTX Magnatec??

I've been using Maganatec 15-40W on my N/A Minis for the last 18 months, but now switching to Millers.

They've been OK but not a lot of miles to draw any positive conclusions.

This is the spec for the 15-40W.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

9.85 @ 145mph
202mph standing mile
speed didn't kill me, but taxation probably will

Hi,
I heard Magnatec was to thin. LR guys said it all disappears down the exhaust!
Cheers,
Gavin :)

Edited by Bat on 5th Nov, 2006.

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Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

I'm really interested in oils and I reckon there is a big point to be made. My mum wants to throw oil in her car when the oil light comes on. She never drops the plug off. The last one did 200000 miles without shitting itself. So, you're looking at a modern oil built to do the job under lazy peoples circumstances. I'm well familiar with the properties of oils degrading over time and the problems they pose. A lot of additives are thrown in to air for high pressure situations and where the oil hasn't reached operating temperatures. One of my mates is an oil expert and he says for gears in sump a la mini, Castor oil is the best. So, you're going to clag up your oilways, change it every 2 weeks and have to strip your engine to convert to it. Plus, it likes to be warmed up to work properly.

Personally, my blower engine is getting Castrol and I really like the idea of running an evacusump. The reason being is that with a bit of a vacuum, the blow up products of the oil and emulsions should boil off and be extracted, leaving nice clean oil. I have no bones about looking at my dipstick or doing a bit of work. What I don't want is worn gears. Synthetics are about the worst thing you can use for a mini.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.a...237642&f=23&h=0 (fellow cornish hillbilly)

I will be running R40 in every engine I rebuild. highest film strength of any oil, period. That's what makes the bones.

I was looking at chainsaw oil the other day and that's funny stuff, I reckon about a 4:1 mix with EP80 would probably be a serious oil to contend with :)

Bugger off, I'm getting there.

according to castrol only oils for new Diesels are going to worry us....

Alex

AlexF

hope this will help to share my motortbike oil preference:
just because your mini need it :
not my woerds but found on the net, if you want more there is a lot of stuff on the net (motul 300v factory zzdp in google)
"Theory of lubrication is to maintain a film of lubricant
between two surfaces thus preventing metal-to-metal contact and
metallic friction. Though the polymers help in this area polymers
alone can't survive all of the squeezing and shock loads of a
transmission and camshaft lobes. So that's where the additive
"ZDDP" or "Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate" comes in to play,
(Can you say Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate?) Don't feel bad,
I had a tough time with this one. I don't even pretend to be a
chemist. But I do know that zinc, being a mineral, clings to the
metal surfaces so when all else fails the zinc will protect the
surfaces from direct metal-to-metal contact. Now the phosphorous,
an essential element in ZDDP, is limited by law in oils marketed
for automobiles because the catalyst won't survive when confronted
with the phosphorous. But since motorcycles don't have catalytic
converters larger quantities of ZDDP are added to quality
motorcycle oils.

Are you confused yet? These are the two biggest
differences and most costly to distinguish motorcycle oils from
automobile oils. It's safe to say that all motorcycle oils are
somewhat of a synthetic blend. Obviously some more than others
depending on other additives."

Hi,
I was thinking motorcycle oil as they have the gears in the sump, but unfortunately M/Cs have been nobbled by the the emissions idiots! :(
All bikes now have cats, most have had since 2003!
My current bike has 7Kg cat under the engine, an O2 sensor and a car sized ECU. All that for 600cc!
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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excellent read dave

Again thanks Dave for that very important point,
I made a loooooong travel on the net looking for oil and zddp.
I would recommend a jump on "bob the oil" site
and a look for shell rotela which seem to be a high speced lubricant with test in motorbikes
I also read some geni research articles for mos2 miw with zddp and calcium.
about motorbikes oils they still have a high proportion of extreme pressure additives in them, as said earlier by mini1071 just be carefull that it is not a low emmission API ILSAC GF-4 one

cheers

fab

Edited by fab on 6th Nov, 2006.

Residual Lubricants are basically things which prevent metal to metal contact when the oil is operating outside it's parameters. A decent oil with a good film strength doesn't need this. But you have to be careful with running it cold, etc.

IIRC, the RL's do interfere with the film strength anyway. So, they cause the film to break down and then protect the result. If these things are so great, why don't they run them instead of oil. It's not because they are solids. They have quite high friction compared to oil film.

Having the highest film strength is our aim, not having a fit and forget solution that modern car owners require.

Edited by Hedgemonkey on 6th Nov, 2006.

Bugger off, I'm getting there.

I will check with my tame lubricant supplier tomorrow and get the data sheets etc. to make sure but here are my findings.

I use a company called DA Stuart who are a major industrial fluids supplier and blend to suit if you ask nicely enough.

I did some trials in both of my Minis and a couple of friends car (1 a rally car the other runs a standard MPi Cooper). We tried different blends under different conditions, some light road use, some fast road, some track etc. After each run we took samples and sent them off to Stuarts lab for a full check of properties and suspended particles etc.

With out a shadow of a doubt, amongst their standard blends at least, a 20w50 called "TaskMaster" held up the best. I ran my 1380 for 5000 on the stuff and the post use analysis was fantastic.

TaskMaster is a turbo same, old school diesel oil but still good enough to recieve certification for use from all the top manufactures such as VW, Merc etc. What is more it's a very good price!!

I set up an account for my local Mini OC and have passed on a fair few 25l kegs with lots of compliments about it's performance.

As I said I will get it's data sheets and post and will also ask them for a couple of alternatives for those with something "different" under the bonnet. (I happily get 12000 miles out of their Enterprise oil in my VW Passat TDi between services and even then the oil condition limits are still a way off!)

Please let me point out that I don't work for and am in no way connected with DA Stuart. I do however work for a major automotive component manufacture who uses their products which may explain why I got such good response from them with the lab work .... the site I work from gives them about £500,000 of business PA with them .....)

Every day is a school day ...........

How fast and how expensive ...... the same question...

rog,did you get anywhare with da stuarts oils on this ?

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

That was a very good an interesting read Dave, cheers.