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Home > MS Trials & Testing > Megasquirt Port Injection Trial

Paul S

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8604 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

I've started a new thread to log my trial of the siamesed port injection code.

Hopefully this will conclude with some positive results that can be applied to my 998 turbo and anyone else's engine.

The story so far is in this thread:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.p...&tid=10506&fr=0

The inlet manifold is detailed in this thread:

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=154962

The completed installation:


Today we managed to get the engine running at idle. This is using the proven MS2/extra code, mainly to debug the system.

I have a couple of outstanding problems to sort to get the idle down, but with help from Axel's fingers, we managed to get it idling at 900 rpm.

The AFRs at idle are as follows:

Outer Cylinders 16:1
Inner Cylinders 11:1

At 2800rpm the AFRs are as follows:

Outer Cylinders 12.5:1
Inner Cylinders 11.5:1

It is set up to run the four injectors simultaneously. There are two injection events per cycle. I've tried various combinations to improve the fuel distribution at idle, but this is the best at the moment.

Next weekend we plan to sort the idle problems, put it on EGO control on the outer cylinder AFR and take it down the road for a datalog.

Edited by Paul S on 13th Jan, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Bat

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Bermingum

Hi,
Getting it running is a great start, good luck with this.
Distribution improves as the revs rise, where it'll be more critical, so thats a plus :)
Keep us informed *wink*
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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alpa

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Grenoble, France

Thank you Paul to share your experience. All that is very interesting.

std 998 A+, g295, MD266, RHF4, 109hp @0.8bar/5400rpm


TurboDave16V
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SouthPark, Colorado

Great stuff Paul, I'm jealous of your progress!
:)

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alpa

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Grenoble, France

Paul, you say there are 2 injection per cycle. Do you mean 1 per revolution ?
Did you manage to know when exactly the injectors are opened ?

std 998 A+, g295, MD266, RHF4, 109hp @0.8bar/5400rpm


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

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On 15th Jan, 2008 alpa said:
Paul, you say there are 2 injection per cycle. Do you mean 1 per revolution ?
Did you manage to know when exactly the injectors are opened ?


Yes, one squirt per revolution. Both ports the same.

My best estimate is that they open at around TDC Nos 2 & 3.

On the No. 2 cylinder induction stroke, some of the fuel is getting into No. 2 cylinder, the rest in the following No. 1 induction stroke.

On the No. 2 cylinder expansion stroke, the fuel sits in the port until No. 2 cylinder inlet valve opens.

And vice versa for No. 3.

This explains why the inner cylinders are running rich. I think it is worse at idle due to the short pulse width. We also know the the squirt timing retards with revs. Hence, the AFRs are getting closer as the revs rise.

It may get better with some load, the theory being that the pulse width will get longer. However as the VE increases, the port velocity increases and more fuel may get into the inner cylinders instead.

Hopefully, get the idling issues fixed and log some data this weekend before downloading the siamesed port code.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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Rural Suffolk

I think I may be a "few" days behind you Paul...

Finally arrived today (imported from USA) so I'm obviously going to be watching this thread with extreme interest.
Hope it goes well for you.
Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


alpa

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Grenoble, France

What's your pulse width at idle ?
I'm going to test my staff in few days.

std 998 A+, g295, MD266, RHF4, 109hp @0.8bar/5400rpm


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland


It's about 1.2ms.

0.9ms to open the injector and 0.3ms fuel flow.

It's very low because I'm running four 488cc/min injectors.

On 15th Jan, 2008 alpa said:
What's your pulse width at idle ?
I'm going to test my staff in few days.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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8604 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

Respect.

I find the prospect of soldering all those components beyond me.


On 15th Jan, 2008 retired said:
I think I may be a "few" days behind you Paul...

Finally arrived today (imported from USA) so I'm obviously going to be watching this thread with extreme interest.
Hope it goes well for you.
Rod.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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On 15th Jan, 2008 Paul S said:

I find the prospect of soldering all those components beyond me.


Something to do whilst it's too cold in the garage to do the real bits is the way I'm looking at it...

One thing that slightly confuses me, you mention earlier in the thread about the differences between inner and outer cylinder AFRs but I thought you were going to just use thermocouples on the turbo motor rather than risk the wideband lambda probes in the manifold before the turbo?

Or have I misread something again.

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland


On 15th Jan, 2008 retired said:

One thing that slightly confuses me, you mention earlier in the thread about the differences between inner and outer cylinder AFRs but I thought you were going to just use thermocouples on the turbo motor rather than risk the wideband lambda probes in the manifold before the turbo?


I'm using wideband lambdas on the NA 1275 pictured above to try to get the AFRs equal on the inner and outer cylinders using the siamesed code.

Once the AFRs are sorted then I'm going to fit thermocouples in the inner and an outer exhaust branch to measure EGTs. I'm also going to put some thermocouples under the spark plugs to measure CHTs.

The hope is that measuring the AFRs and the temperatures will establish a realationship that will transfer to the turbo engine, without having to subject Widebands to exhaust presure on the turbo.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Rod S

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Sorry,

Yes, I had misread it - I knew what you were intending, I misread the picture above as being the turbo motor rather than the NA, I didn't read the text properly....

Must try harder...

Edited by Rod S on 15th Jan, 2008.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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8604 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

It's idling on its own now!

Had a couple of idling issues:

Firstly, the TB idle screw was cruded up so would not close - easy fix.

Secondly, the inlet air control valve was not working correctly. In the end I went to the scrappy this morning and got a couple of spares.

Eventually got it to idle by setting the start steps to 300, which is far higher than I expected to be necessary.

Anyway, I'm going to feed in the AFR this afternoon, so that I can run it on a closed loop without having to worry about the fuel map.

I might be able to get it on the road for a datalog, but that depends on the weather. Not that I'm bothered about getting my car wet and dirty, but it's parked behind Axel's immaculate 30 that he will not let me move out the way if there is the slightest hint of rain.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland

You've heard the story, now watch the movie!

http://www.jaservices.co.uk/photos/EFI%20Movie.wmv

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


wil_h

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On 19th Jan, 2008 Paul S said:

I might be able to get it on the road for a datalog, but that depends on the weather. Not that I'm bothered about getting my car wet and dirty, but it's parked behind Axel's immaculate 30 that he will not let me move out the way if there is the slightest hint of rain.


I thought you were Axel?

Anyway, all sounds good.

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On 2nd Jan, 2013 fastcarl said:

the design shows a distinct lack of imagination,
talk about starting off with a clean sheet of paper, then not bothering to fucking draw on it,lol

On 20th Apr, 2012 Paul S said:
I'm mainly concerned about swirl in the runners caused by the tangential entry.


Paul S

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8604 Posts
Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland


On 19th Jan, 2008 wil_h said:

I thought you were Axel?


Axel is my 19 year old son (one of three who each own a Mini). Originally created the login for him, but ended up using it myself!

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Tom Fenton
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On 19th Jan, 2008 Paul S said:
immaculate 30 that he will not let me move out the way if there is the slightest hint of rain.


Tell him bollocks! As robert once said in a thread "My house my rules" LOL!


On 29th Nov, 2016 madmk1 said:


On 28th Nov, 2016 Rob Gavin said:
I refuse to pay for anything else


Like fuel 😂😂


matnrach

152 Posts
Member #: 1074
Advanced Member

Northamptonshire

I am part way through my conversion to turbo/injection from N/A megajolt.
Just finished building the MS1 V3 and tested this morning on basic code.
Will install MS Extra soon after I am a bit more familiar with the software.
Then convert to Edis hardware mods and test in car as ignition only.

I have to say the instructions were really easy to follow and support from DIY Autotune very good.

Hardware mods for inlet are coming along. I will be using a T02 from a Renault5 and charge cooling as the engine is mid mounted.
Here are a few if pics


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o249/ma...bo/P1010033.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o249/ma...bo/P1010031.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o249/ma...rbo/P101003.jpg

Edited by matnrach on 19th Jan, 2008.


Rod S

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matnrach - where are you based ???
UK or USA ??? (or somewhere else ???

(your profile (left of post) doesn't say)

The reason I'm interested is I'm now 3/4 way through a MS2 (V3, with CAN) kit build, also bought from DIYautotune (but obviously imported into the UK in my case) and am interested in how others (who have actually built them themselves) have implemented some of the options (ie, jumpers).

If there are enough people doing it (building the electronics as opposed to Paul who is actually testing it) I'll start a new thread - there are a few options I'm still undecided on.

Rod.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


matnrach

152 Posts
Member #: 1074
Advanced Member

Northamptonshire

I'm UK based.

I am building it for use with Edis ignition and PWM 2 wire idle valve, boost control and maybe knock later (and possible water injection)
Hence Hall tacho option, PWM option, No IGBT (TIP120 in its place)
I will be using high impedance EV6 injectors but have still installed the PWM flyback module as suggested.

The hardware mods seem to be well documented in the MSExtra hardware manual.

I have built it as suggested in the normal V3 assembly manual and will modify for Edis after more familiarisation of the software. (don't think the Stim works after Edis hardware mods)

Anyway it works fine on the bench but still some way to go yet so I could have got things wrong!

Edited by matnrach on 19th Jan, 2008.


Bat

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Hi,
Paul have you noticed any lag in throttle response with the TB that far away from the engine?
Cheers,
Gavin :)

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Paul S

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Formerly Axel

Podland

Took the first datalog this morning with the EFI fitted.

14 Degrees C, 82% humidity, 1010 mBar.

Still some issues with idling but driveable.

The attached log shows a bit at idle, a blast though the gears, a bit a cruise and then another bit of WOT.

The AFR spread at idle is poor, it gets so lean on the outer cylinders that it misfires.

The closed loop control comes in at 1300rpm and controls to a map on the outer cylinder AFRs.

It looks like the inner cylinder AFR is hitting a limit in the instrumentation. This needs a bit of further investigation.

At WOT the AFRs get closer and are actually no worse than the carb.

http://www.jaservices.co.uk/photos/Dual%20...0Log%20EFI1.pdf

Edited by Paul S on 21st Jan, 2008.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Paul S

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Member #: 573
Formerly Axel

Podland


On 19th Jan, 2008 Bat said:
Hi,
Paul have you noticed any lag in throttle response with the TB that far away from the engine?
Cheers,
Gavin :)


There is a small lag, but nothing to cause any problems and you would soon get used to it.

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


robert

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uranus

thats really interesting .thanks.

Medusa + injection = too much torque for the dyno ..https://youtu.be/qg5o0_tJxYM

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