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Home > General Chat > SC 5 Port EFI testing...the results are in....interesting!

johnK

1423 Posts
Member #: 690
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Norfolk

We've been thinking about 5 port inection for a few years now and the opportunity to test our ideas for an EFI system came up through our friend Jon Clarke, he's puttng together a fast road/competition Mini and had been talking to us about compatability of parts, specs etc - he'd love a 7 port (as he works for the company that machines them!) but doesn't have the funds at the minute and fancied a really hot race spec 5 port - his engine spec is:-

1380cc Forged Omegas, 11.25:1
Very well modified head with Rimflow 36*31
SC steel crank/rods
Kent 296 scatter billet cam/belt drive
1.5:1 roller rockers
Full on Maniflow/Swiftune race LCB

very much a full fat 5 port. Initially Jon was going to run a steel medium length Maniflow inlet with big choke Weber on it (with SC ram pipes of course!)

So we sponsored the setting up of his engine on the Weber and our EFI system in return he could keep the EFI system for his car (or throw it back at us and take the Weber option if it the EFI all went pete tong! and was rubbish).

A little bit about our kit:-

Its designed to be a very easy bolt on system for carb cars (we will offer it for MPI usage as well with a custom loom). We aim to provide all the parts to do it and it is very straightforward. Its based around a modified Minispares SU manifold and bespoke throttle body and inector housing/fuel rail/ram pipe (the bespoke throttle linkage even has a fast idle/choke mechanism!). Uses the Typhoon ecu and is not siamese coded. Will come with trigger wheel kit/coil/loom/plug leads/CAN tuning interface/software - we'll offer options to include fuel pumps etc.

The aim of our kit was always to provide the end user with a very easy to install kit, with a high end ECU that is easily tuned, will give all of the driveability/efficiency and mid range a big carb can't and get within spitting distance of a Weber for all out power- like most things we do at SC this is no small list of project criteria!!! - ohh and lastly it had to be very cost effective! which it will be - three figure effective!

So we chose probably the hardest most extreme end of mini tuning to test our kit on - along the way we learned an enormous amount about n/a 5 ports and how they tip conventional tuning right on its head! We used exhaust gas temp probes to look at the distribution across the cylinders on both the DCOE and the EFI as well as a gas analizer and lambda in the tail pipe




..........did it work? who'd like to see some pics?

JK



If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


cossierick

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wakefield West Yorks

Wel yes and some figures.

Rick


theoneeyedlizard

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The Boom Boom speaker Police!

Essex

Yes please

In the 13's at last!.. Just


apbellamy

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16492 Posts
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King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner

Rotherham, South Yorkshire

you tease! get some pic's up

On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it

*hehe!*


johnK

1423 Posts
Member #: 690
Post Whore

Norfolk

Some pics of the set up during testing with very different induction lengths!






the second fro mbottom was 35mm shorter than a Weber set up on 45mm length ram pipes

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


apbellamy

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King Gaycharger, butt plug dealer, Sheldon Cooper and a BAC but generally a niceish fella if you dont mind a northerner

Rotherham, South Yorkshire

Bloody hell John! I'm now thinking about something else for my suck through supercharger setup (SC12 not eaten). I'll never finish/afford it at this rate...

On 11th Feb, 2015 robert said:
i tried putting soap on it , and heating it to brown , then slathered my new lube on it

*hehe!*


matty

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8291 Posts
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Turbo Love Palace Fool

Aylesbury

Nice work! And the results....?

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fusion-Fabri..._homepage_panel

www.fusionfabs.co.uk



1/4mile in 13.2sec @ 111 terminal on 15psi


johnK

1423 Posts
Member #: 690
Post Whore

Norfolk

As always with the dyno sesions we do we took lots of video footage, I'll post these up later next week when Simon does his magic with them - there are some cool shots down the throat of the throttle body at full bore.

The Weber set up worked really well with this engine spec but fuel distrubution wasn't gread, EGT's were up to 150°C different between the two outside cylinders and the middle one - siamese ports doing their best to spoil the party. Running a 296 cam under dyno load meant the Weber would just pull full throttle from 3000rpm, any lower than this and it wasn't happy at anything much over part throttle - certainely no more than 50% would stop it dead.

The EFI set up on the other hand with Simon pulling the 5 port into line kept EGT's within 30°C of the outer pairs and the inner pair under full load conditions - even closer whilst doing the part throttle load sites.

So what rpm would this full on angry 5 port pull full throttle at on its 296 cam?
JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


Rod S

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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

John,

EGTs are meaningless on the siamese exhaust heads.

Paul has tried it, I've tried it (but only on the test bench) and it bears minimal resemblance to the AFRs between inner and outer.

Surely you should be setting up dual widebands to actually look at the mixture distribution on any 5 port.

It's dead easy on an N/A engine.

It only becomes complicated on the turbo derivatives.

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


johnK

1423 Posts
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Norfolk

ok on our EFI set up the motor would pull 100% throttle under dyno load at 1500rpm and make a lot of torque! The part throttle mapping will make this one snappy motor in the car - rather than a coughing barking pita!

the induction length that works is the second one down on the photos - shiny ram pipe - meaning this kit will package without any bulkhead mods at all - Weber performance, awseome low end pull, better fuel economy, stunning driveability, cost effective and you don't have to modify the bulkhead - job done!

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


Rod S

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5725 Posts
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Formally Retired

Rural Suffolk

John,

Show us some AFRs, inner vs outer.

On mine I can see 100-150 degrees C different between inner and outer with AFRs virtually identical (as they should be).

I'm not knocking your work - I've seen it first hand - but surely EGTs have been shown to be a worthless measurement on a 5 port compared to actual AFRs between the inners and outers ???

Schrödinger's cat - so which one am I ???


Paul S

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8476 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

Come on John, surely you can do better than a sixties carburetor. Shame on you.



http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=380668

http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/index.php?p=vt&tid=388999

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


johnK

1423 Posts
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Post Whore

Norfolk

an engine will only take as much air as it needs for max power Paul - unless its got forced induction if the airflow isn't limited you can't make it make more power. This full race 5 port needed enough air for 120hp and thats what it got from both set ups. How about full throttle at 1500rpm - I'm sure thats of more use than a little top end power.lol In fact I'm sure 99.9% of people would take the driveability gains and peak power match as an unbeatable result.

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


Paul S

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8476 Posts
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Formerly Axel

Podland

Just teasing John. Great work.

I agree with Rod. You should expect the inners to run around 100-150 Degrees hotter at equal AFRs.

I have logs of AFR, EGT and CHT in my testing threads that show this.

Get the AFRs right and I would expect you to see more power than the Weber

Saul Bellow - "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
Stephen Hawking - "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."


Brett

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Doncaster, South Yorkshire

so is this basically a mappable carb? like the spi or is it abit more trick then that

My B18VtecTurbo Awd Mini 2 years in, been running for 2years +.... vtec just kicked in yo
Instagram @jdm_brett

On 14th Feb, 2014 robert said:
I think he thought his car was 465kg ,and you then guessed it at 565kg , and stuff me !! you were right


johnK

1423 Posts
Member #: 690
Post Whore

Norfolk

Brett -exactly right - a very clevererly controlled electronic carb

Paul - sorry but I don't agree

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


gr4h4m

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Chester


On 26th Nov, 2010 apbellamy said:
Bloody hell John! I'm now thinking about something else for my suck through supercharger setup (SC12 not eaten). I'll never finish/afford it at this rate...



ME TOO.!! how much John?

I run a supercharger and I don't care the TB is on the wrong side.
VEMS + 12 PSI + Liquid Intercooler = Small Bore FUN!


johnK

1423 Posts
Member #: 690
Post Whore

Norfolk

I do need to finalise some of the parts pricing early next week but it will be three figures

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


Sprocket

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Preston On The Brook

EGT is an average temperature since the exhaust gas is a pulse. The funky 5 porter has a single exhaust port for the middle two cylinders, and therefore the EGT will be apparently higher, as it experiences twice the exhaust gas pulses than the outer two exhaust ports would. So you should expect a temperature difference. What that difference is, I have no idea *happy*

On 26th Oct, 2004 TurboDave16v said:
Is it A-Series only? I think it should be...
So when some joey comes on here about how his 16v turbo vauxhall is great compared to ours, he can be given the 'bird'...


On 26th Oct, 2004 Tom Fenton said:
Yep I agree with TD........


Si P

784 Posts
Member #: 912
Post Whore

North Yorkshire

Just one question John

Why use that particular inlet manifold..?

Si

I drill holes in everything..!


jbelanger

1204 Posts
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Post Whore

Montreal, Canada

On 26th Nov, 2010 johnK said:

Paul - sorry but I don't agree

JK


Do you have any facts to back this up? You must have the means to measure the AFR in the 3 exhaust ports (or at least the middle and one outer) so you could get an idea of what the fuel distribution is like. Unless you don't want to know or let it be known.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/


EricsAmerica

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Annapolis, MD USA

Seems to me that SC is not going to put out anything that is not well engineered and well tested....Nice work johnK....looking forward to seeing more info on this!!!

Eric
my pics.... http://www.fototime.com/inv/7AAF37CF3EFA956


mcalvert39

382 Posts
Member #: 442
Senior Member

Manchester

Looks like a weird version of a fish carb.
I like the setup, with a few mods i reckon itll be easy to turbo that.
Having twin injectors like that reminds me of the mitsty starion setup.... but they always went wrong.. summat to do with the connections or seals, i forget?


johnK

1423 Posts
Member #: 690
Post Whore

Norfolk

Si - its a very good compact manifold with good port velocity and flow ability - we do modify it slightly to make it flow more but not a great deal - it will package and is readily available

Jean - maybe people mis understand us for tuners with no experience or a "that'll do" attitude. Thats a mistake - SC engineers have developed the engine calibration for Lotus Cars product from Rover K through Toyota 2zz (drive by wire) - including Euro 5 and Federilisation and onto Evora v6 as well as countless other oem and aftermarket/race series engines over 15 years experience in this field at OE level- so when I say we map engines correctly we do not guess/theorise or make do everything is covered - we have nothing to prove to the aftermarket we only deal in facts.

Eric - thanks for your comments you are quite right

JK

If Carling made Mini engines
it would probably be like this one!


jbelanger

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Montreal, Canada

On 26th Nov, 2010 johnK said:
Jean - maybe people mis understand us for tuners with no experience or a "that'll do" attitude. Thats a mistake - SC engineers have developed the engine calibration for Lotus Cars product from Rover K through Toyota 2zz (drive by wire) - including Euro 5 and Federilisation and onto Evora v6 as well as countless other oem and aftermarket/race series engines over 15 years experience in this field at OE level- so when I say we map engines correctly we do not guess/theorise or make do everything is covered - we have nothing to prove to the aftermarket we only deal in facts.

I have no doubt that you are experienced and are not guessing but I still think I had a valid question about having facts. You certainly have a well informed opinion but unless you have the facts on this specific issue, it remains an opinion. If you have facts other that EGT, are you willing to share these or at least share how you came to the conclusion that Paul is wrong.

Both Paul and Rod have presented actual results which do show that EGT cannot be used to infer AFR due to the shared exhaust port. That is not an opinion but simply the presentation of measurements. If you think that having different AFRs will give better power than matched and optimised AFRs, I would like to see those measurement results. And some explanation of why that is would also be interesting.

By the way, this is a very nice kit and I have no doubt that it is a quality item. But until you design and make a setup that can actually overcome the siamese port charge robbing issues, you will also be guessing/theorising as much as I am on how good your system is and how much better it could or could not be. Your opinion is no doubt based on more experience that I could ever dream of having but still an opinion.

Jean

http://www.jbperf.com/

Home > General Chat > SC 5 Port EFI testing...the results are in....interesting!
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